Expansion of crossboews in WI

[BT]

kurt said:

Hi BT

I think I understand what you are saying. I have seen this kind of thing to (in Wisconsin) However, I am not so sure that it equates to "most" gun hunters being slobs & poachers. I think it is a matter of numbers (& maybe some others factors) Meaning that there are vastly more gun hunters & so you are going to naturally have more bad apples, which means that the problems are going to be more evident.

Doesn't change the fact that there are also bad apple archers. Its just that its less evident, because there are less numbers to Begin with.

Kind of goes to the stat. aweshucks post concerning gun violations compared to archery violations

Kurt

I can agree with that pretty much but since there really isn't a way to determine whats in the heart...it's left up to opinion based on what is observed.
What I have observed is that slobs generally avoid archery in the long term because it requires some level of commitment which translates to the level of success.
Lets take a common example of truth through observation....
Rumors start based on observation and opinion relating to that observation.
Rumor spreads as others see the same example.
Now I know I am walking on egg shells here and I am not trying to imply anything .... just going to throw up an example here...
The drunk hunter
When you hear people (non-hunters) commenting ignorantly about the bottles in the woods....do they say hunters with thier beer and guns or do they say hunters with thier beer and bows?
As in comedy , there has to be a grain of truth to anything that is repeated for it to be repeated often and for any period of time.

What I am saying with this example (which we have all heard) is that hunters and beer do not travel alone in this rumor...the gun is always along for the ride in it's telling

When we hear about some city boy blowing away a dog,goat,ect. and then tries to tag it as a deer....it's never a bow that's used to commit the act.
I am sure we have all heard or seen such as this example
Lets face it....guns are the easy access to hunting....doesn't matter if you are lazy or not , you are in the company of people who are idiots to a far greater degree.
In my Experience , these are the facts.

Now with this being said....these may not be the facts for you and yours
If that's true then consider yourself fortunate and I wish I were there with you!
That being said....I think that this is the reasoning in some part as to why some bowhunters are more against the crossbow.
By and large , we have found a pleasant , challenging and safe way to hunt among others and we dont want to jeopardise that
Really , I think that's all there is to it.

You want to see people give into the crossbow more readily?....start proficiency testing and mandate a passing grade of 90% before licencing the hunter....any hunter!

[awshucks]

"That being said....I think that this is the reasoning in some part as to why some bowhunters are more against the crossbow.
By and large , we have found a pleasant , challenging and safe way to hunt among others and we dont want to jeopardise that"

I'd say that is probably the number one reason for the opposition to xbow inclusion; fear of an invasion by the "orange army".

The gun hunters that want to bow hunt are for the most part, already doing so via the compound. Granted, there will be some gh that think they can cut a fat hog in the arse by getting an xbow and all that archery season time. Most often, they are sadly dissapointed. This is strictly my opinion, no links here guys, lol, but I don't think they can easily make the adjustment needed to bow hunt at bow hunting ranges. It's much easier to sit in a stand and whack deer at 100, 150, 200 yds. Noise isn't quite so critical and neither is scent control. After a season or two I believe the xbow ends up in a closet or on Ebay. The truely dedicated to this new form of hunting may attempt a drive or two first, lol. Those don't work any better than their original brain storm.

As to the gun hunter ethics, I have a hard time painting any group w/ a broad brush. I know in Illinois the gun deer season was way different than the ones I saw in Pa. Most guys in Il hunted alone or w/ one buddy maybe. They only had to drive a few miles to get to their spots. In Pa. they all but shut down the state and the party was on at "deer camp". No slurs on Pa or it's gun hunters here, but it was what I saw. The ratio of deer hanging after close on the last day was related to the piles of empty beverage bottles and cans, lol. Can you imagine climbing into a bow stand all hung over and reeking of one form of hooch or another?lol. Tuna again tonight boys, lol.

[BT]

In your last observation , Your seeing just what I have seen and that's the fear among the bowhunting community.
This is what worries bowhunters (in part) because we dont want to be linked to that behavior and if we are , it will stick long after that guy has put his bow on ebay

[kurt]

This all goes back to the argument (which is actually more of a myth, then an argument) "that the Xbow is compared more to a gun then a bow"

I both, understand & agree with all that has been said here concerning the elements & attitudes associated with gun hunters & it is what I referred to when I mentioned having seen the same kind of actions in Wi. Wisconsin is a lot like what aweshucks described in Pa.

Therefore, yes, I can also understand & even agree with the concern &/or fear expressed by the archery community that, - "allowing Xbow during archery season would over crowed the woods, squeeze out legitimate bow hunters &/or be hard on deer herd populations."

I to, most certainly would not & do not want to see this kind of activity become associated with bow hunting. (although, the fact is that this kind of BS does already exist among bow hunters, & again it just is not as evident, because of the numbers thing, - will post a couple of absolutely true, personal experiences about this later)

For now, sticking to the "perceived" or potential problem. I don't think that keeping Xbow "out" (& therefore ethical &/or honest bow hunters out) because of a perceived problem is the answer ether. That's kind of like spanking Johnny because Joey spilt his milk.

If the problem is foreseen (& it is) Then you put the solution in place to start with. Another words, it is an education problem, & so is also a education solution. --- Dispel the MYTH that Xbow is more like a gun then a bow, through "required" education.

#1) Require xbow manufactures to provide info concerning logistics of the shot (range & conditions) the mechanics ( its still a bow, 2 limbs providing tension by drawing a string back) & the laws of physics (or KE = more xbow draw weight then vert. bow weight, due to shorter limbs = less energy stored in limbs & transferred by shorter string)

#2) Require same info again at purchase of archery license.

#3) Require purchase of Xbow stamp (additional $10 - $20) to go with archery license.

#4) Require Xbow Ed. class for "all new" xbow hunters (this is were you "acquire" Xbow stamp, - not at purchase of license, - & fee pays for class)

#5) Include Xbow Ed in future hunting Ed

#6) STIFF fine & loss of hunting privileges if caught without above documentation)

Kurt

[BT]

If the problem is foreseen (& it is) Then you put the solution in place to start with. Another words, it is an education problem, & so is also a education solution. --- Dispel the MYTH that Xbow is more like a gun then a bow, through "required" education.

#1) Require xbow manufactures to provide info concerning logistics of the shot (range & conditions) the mechanics ( its still a bow, 2 limbs providing tension by drawing a string back) & the laws of physics (or KE = more xbow draw weight then vert. bow weight, due to shorter limbs = less energy stored in limbs & transferred by shorter string)

#2) Require same info again at purchase of archery license.

#3) Require purchase of Xbow stamp (additional $10 - $20) to go with archery license.

#4) Require Xbow Ed. class for "all new" xbow hunters (this is were you "acquire" Xbow stamp, - not at purchase of license, - & fee pays for class)

#5) Include Xbow Ed in future hunting Ed

#6) STIFF fine & loss of hunting privileges if caught without above documentation)
__________________________________________________


The above is some of the finest thinking I have ever seen on the subject

[awshucks]

#1) Require xbow manufactures to provide info concerning logistics of the shot (range & conditions) the mechanics ( its still a bow, 2 limbs providing tension by drawing a string back) & the laws of physics (or KE = more xbow draw weight then vert. bow weight, due to shorter limbs = less energy stored in limbs & transferred by shorter string)

#2) Require same info again at purchase of archery license.

#3) Require purchase of Xbow stamp (additional $10 - $20) to go with archery license.

Re: #1. Most mfgrs include that info w/ new bows
Re: #2 Redundant
Re: #3 Why should I pay a different cost than a recurve or compound shooter?
Re: #4 Why limit to xbows?
Re: #5 Agreed
Re: #6 Co's are over worked and under paid already, but I could agree if there were proficiency tests for ALL.

[awshucks]

"Dispel the MYTH that Xbow is more like a gun then a bow, through "required" education."

That "myth" is known to be just that to everyone who ever shoots a crossbow. Hunting for arrows that completely missed the target gives one lots of time for reflection, lol.

That particular myth got started by anti xbow factions and is perpetuated to this day on places like Bowsite, Pope and Young, ect. Try educating those folks, lol.

I don't mean to play the Devils advocate here, but I have more than enough Govt. in my life as is, so I need to see some real advantages in inviting more. You cannot legislate ethics or behavior in this country. Look only to the problems w/ drugs and illegally owned guns by criminals.

[BT]

I hear you...I really do.
That said....sometimes a legal commitment is a good thing.

With the correct licence procedure , it could save alot of aggravation in the long run.

Look at drivers licences....you have to show proficiency there , why not with weapons?.
Just doesn't make any sense at all to me.....for any weapon.

[awshucks]

One more thing about prof tests. There is nothing to prevent a peson passing one w/ an arrow flinging device and then launching one at a preposterous distance on a Hail Mary type shot. Imho, the reason they can't shoot their device well in the 1st place is due to a lack of dedication and respect for the game. I don't care for lost game threads much, due to the fact that the ARA's troll for this stuff. I think from some posts I'ver read in various places we have the majority of good ethical hunters educating there buddies w/ stuff like "I won't hunt w/ you if you're going to do that kind of thing." I think we all know what device has the greatest loss ratio. It's been that way for how many thousand years now? I quit w/ mine due to an injury and was glad to put it up. Never was real comfortable w/ the dang thing, and the few deer I got w/ it invariably started w/ "please Lord" lol. I have the UTMOST respect for those that are deadly w/ them, and there are LOTS of them out there, just not all unfortunately. Not offering any exuses here, but I'm left eye dominant and shot bows right handed. Doomed from the git go, lol. Only took me 20 yrs or so to figure that one out, lol.

[BT]

I have been told this many times and although it true enough , the fact is that on average , most new applicants (in this area) couldn't hit a basket ball at 20 yards
Ethics aside.....for the person who is allowed to hunt just because they sat through a lecture and passed a written test .....
They can and do have the same end result ....which ends up being the same as an unethical hunter.

This is why I say that the current hunter safety course is all but worthless for what we are discussing here.
For this same reason , those who are already lacking are going to gravitate to the crossbow simply because they are stupid as to the reality of what they would apply to engage in.
The state in turn will pave the way for them....same as they do with the compound

So....there is your case for crossbow endorsement
(Like it or not....these are the truths )