Expansion of crossboews in WI

[smj]

kurt said:

Hi BT

What I am wondering, is "why" he thinks (&/or feels) that xbow should not be equally included in the archery season. Kurt

Hi Kurt... I won't pretend to be able to answer for all archers out there, yet I can try to give you an answer of sorts. When archery season was established, back in the dark days, archery was considered a primitive sport. Actually, if not for the likes of Pope, Young, Hill, Bear, and others - there might not have been an archery season at all. There were a lot of folks out there who didn't think the bow and arrow had a place in the hunting season line up because the thought was that it was not adequate to take big game. At this point, most modern day archers even forget that the old stick and string (which has probably killed more animals and people over time than any other weapon to date...), when used properly, will take any animal out there. Even though the arrow probably won't blast clean through an animal every time, it still does the job when used well. Compare this to the modern bow and crossbow. Most times the arrow just blows right through! A pal of mine is making longbows that will toss a heavy arrow at over 200 fps, without having to draw 80 pounds. This is no primative bow anymore, and neither is a compound, or a crossbow. The crossbow was never considered a primative weapon as was the simple stick and string. The compound, when introduced, was not accepted either. It had to fight hard to be accepted as a bow. It got in by stating things like "improved accuracy, better energy, fewer lost animals, less animal suffering..." Add to that the greedy nature of man - everyone wanted the bigger energy, better accuracy, and longer distance shots. So the compound skipped into the graces of archery hunting everywhere. There is still a battle being fought between traditional archers and compound archers about whether or not there should be two archery seasons today: One for "primative" weapons, and the other for compound bows. This rift between archers may yet open the door for the anti's to come in and "modify" the archery hunting season. Personally, I don't want that to happen. SO - where is this going? OK, now add in to this mess the crossbow. The crossbow was considered a huge technological advance back when it came in to being. Today, people try to tie it to the rifle and claim it to be the first rifle of sorts - I waffle back and forth on this one and don't know what to think about that. Yet still, the stick and string as compared to the crossbow come from different levels of technology. Period. Where we are now getting in trouble, in my opinion, is that when compared to the modern compound the crossbow is not a step up in technology. A poor crossbow would be a step down in technology from a well crafted compound bow. Hence, those who shoot crossbows today see this lack of difference in technologies and further see no reason why they shouldn't be included in the archery season. I hold that if the compound had not been allow, the crossbow would never be allowed. But the compound was allowed... So what do we do now? Here's the dig, as I see it: If the crossbow is allowed in to the regular archery season then all claims of archery being a primative season will be lost. The arguements will no longer hold up. Is this right, I don't think so. Will we see the anti's and others use it to their advantage, I do believe so. I think that eventually archery season would be shortened to a 5 days season just like rifle season, and the establishment of another primative archery season, for simple stick and string bows, will never happen as there are not enough numbers out there to push it through. I don't want this to happen. I my opinion, where crossbow season should go is during black powder season. Here in Colorado, this already overlaps archery season any way. If we can share with black powder shooters, why not with crossbows at the same time? I think that back in the day - technologies wise - crossbows and black powder rifles were a better match up than crossbows and simple stick and strings.

Again, these are just my thoughts on the issue and probably don't fit well with everyone!

[kurt]

Hi smj

Thank you very much for your reply, - really enjoyed it. - I like the way you try to "reason" the arguments of the issue out, with an attitude of, - (how do we make this work to the good of ALL concerned !!!) This is refreshing, because it has been my experience that most people tend to take "sides" based on their "personal" feelings & fears. They then argue that side as an absolute, - with out giving any consideration to how it effects others. The shame in this is that people also tend to want law to protect "their personal" freedoms, rights & privileges - at the expense of the freedoms, rights & privileges of others.

Anyway, right now I need to get ready for work & will post back with more thoughts & comment later & again thanks for the reply!!!

Kurt

[kurt]

Hi again smj

And again I want to thank you for your thoughtful post. I see that you are a "traditional" archer.

36 years ago,(I was 14) when I first started hunting, compound bows were relatively new & just coming on the seen, so yes I can remember the controversy of that time. My first bow was a Fred Bear recurve which was the only bow I ever hunted with. That is until about 6 years ago when I started in with a crossbow. Why the move over to xbow???

Here is my story. - I spent around 20 years working as a Hi Lead (or cable) logger in Northern California. One of the most dangerous & physically challenging jobs in this world. As a result, this old body has taken some hard hits. I have pinched nerves in my neck that cause my arms to go numb & my fifth lumbar has been broken, pinching the nerves in my legs. Then, to top it off, seven years ago, I had a kick back on a table saw, taking my hand (my draw hand) through the blade & I lost half my thumb, half my middle finger & caused sever nerve & tendon damage to my index finger. It took a year to heal up & that is when I took up hunting with a crossbow, - being qualified for "special use permit."

So, - here is why I advocate, for the use of crossbow as equal to & inclusive with the current "excepted" bows of archery hunting seasons.

When it comes right down to it, - when hunting, - & the "logistics" required, - to take the shot, - to harvest the animal I am hunting & put the meat in the freezer, - "absolutely" - "nothing" has changed, - between my hunting with the good old Fred Bear recurve bow, - & my hunting with my new Horton crossbow.

I "still" have to have the animal within a 40 yard (or less) range, to take the shot, - I "still" have to have a shot, - that is "absolutely" clear of obstructions. - And, I still have to put into practice, "exactly" the same hunting skills, to make these two things happen. --- And, - isn't this, - the "logistics" of the shot, that "really" defines the "hunt"

Also, - the mechanics are "basically" the same. You have two limbs, that when drawn back by a string, providing tension, that when released, provides the energy, to propel a shaft with a broadhead & fletching.

Also, - when it comes to the "laws" of physics (&/or kinetic energy) there just flat out is not enough difference to make an argument out of it. Which is in the first place, - why the logics of the shot required, - does not change from one bow to the next, - including the crossbow.

So I ask, - what is the difference, - if I harvest my animal, - to put meat in my freezer, - with my good old Fred Bear recurve, - or my new Horton crossbow.

Lets remember, - I am hunting. --- Not competing in a tournament shoot!!! --- Shouldn't I have the "right" to "choose" the equipment that works best for me???

Kurt

[awshucks]

Kurt:

Threads of this nature usually "go south" in short order. I'm on a bunch of xbow forums, and can give you a few tips. Rather than debate an individual, it's better, imho, to state your facts and then move on. Seldom will you change a hard core anti xbowers opinion, however the fence sitters digest facts and are our future.
Here's an example. In every state that keeps stats, the harvest rates are nearly identical for xbow and compound, per cent wise. This negates all the "xbow advantage" arguments.

Usually what the debates boil down to is a fear of crossovers from the gun hunters wanting a shot at the long archery deer seasons in most states. With the recent advances in compunds in the last few years and the relative ease of getting 7"-9" groups at 20-25 yds, most gun hunters that want to archery hunt are already doing so. A hard lesson that must be learned by any firearm deer hunter getting into any form of archery hunting is the upclose part of it, which can be a life long learning experience, lol. Those looking for an easy time of it generally don't do too well and the new xbow sits in a closet or end up on Ebay in short order.

Notice my lack of reference to the trad guys. There is no comparison between a stick or recurve to an xbow. However, their world started changing for what some would say the worse in 1967 when Mr. Allen brought out the compound verticle bow.

Archery has changed, imho, more in our lifetimes than the last 5000 yrs or more.

Edited to add: posted this before I saw page 2, my bad

[BT]

awshucks said:

Kurt:

Threads of this nature usually "go south" in short order. I'm on a bunch of xbow forums, and can give you a few tips. Rather than debate an individual, it's better, imho, to state your facts and then move on.

Although I understand your reasoning here .... I dont know as I agree
Debate (constructive debate ) can change minds because it is constructive and will show it's worth as the subject is taken apart and exposed.
If you have a good point , it doesn't matter what side of the debate you are on....it is a good point.
If you make that point....it will be remembered and as those good points add up , the opinions can change.

If all you do is state a good opinion , there will be an overwhelming response in the negative.
(On any subject)
If you allow your one response to be buried , you haven't giving your point of view the representation that it deserves.

I believe that if you feel you are right then you have to challenge those who say you are wrong.
If you do so and thier arguments are stronger....eventually you will come around .... if you truly care.

Keep yourself on that platform until the day comes where everyone either wants to join you or you realise that you are wrong

[smj]

Kurt – Wow! Thanks for sharing a brief of your archery experience! (36 years ago, I, too, was 14 and used a Fred Bear Recurve!) I can not imagine anyone who truly cares for this sport not wanting to see something done to help keep you in the game as long as possible. Still, I have to say that I believe you will have to endure an uphill battle for a while yet! I think that in general, awshucks is right when he suggests that MOST of the time, these threads go down hill in a hurry. This is really to bad, and I don’t think it has to be that way at all! But I also think BT makes a great point when he basically says that if you feel something is a worthy cause, it is worth taking a stand for it. But I think you will have to have thick skin, and be determined, and most importantly be very smart about it!

Awshucks notes that the stick and string does not compare to either the compound or the crossbow. I tried to state the same thing above, maybe I was not clear there –but I do not think that you can overlook that the seasons we know and love were (to my knowledge) set up based on folks who wanted to archery hunt with a longbow or a recurve. The compound was not around at that time. The crossbow was not allowed, it was considered a different level of technology, falling between the bow and the rifle. The hunting seasons - and where we are today - were originally based on the ‘ole stick and string. Don’t forget that what we enjoy today was founded in the face of stiff opposition originally and been under attack ever since. AND, do not take lightly all of the thousands of people who have fought to keep (and enhance) these laws in place that allow us to enjoy the archery season as it is. If you really want to change the way archery season is defined, you are going to have to get some buy-in from those who have fought so hard for so long to keep what we have. You will have to understand what the real issues are, and what is at stake. I think, my opinion again, that you will find that there is a lot more at stake than just adding a crossbow to the list of legal weapons for archery season. Now, I am not one of those in the “know” on this, but I’ll give you my thoughts on it, in no particular order:

A host of individuals will come forth who are not informed and only running on emotional hype. They believe that they are right, everyone else is wrong, and will have no factual knowledge to base their opinions on. They will add chaos and nothing else.

Rifle hunters will add chaos to the mix. A number of them want to hunt during archery season, during the rut for elk here in Colorado, and they want our longer season. Let one person suggest that the crossbow is a rifle – some rifle hunter will suggest that there is no difference. I am not trying to pick on rifle hunters, sorry if come out that way, but I have personally taken a lot of abuse from those who covet the early archery season time of the year for hunting, but do not hunt with a bow.

Anti-hunting/animal rights groups – They will state that the crossbow is not a primitive weapon, and suggest that the season should be brought in line with rifle season. Press this argument and there could be a review of the compound bow… That could be ruled as not being a primitive weapon either – more chaos and division among those of us who need to stick together!

Traditional archers who are already upset about compound bows will probably not support the bringing of crossbows in to archery season. They want the compounds out already! More chaos indeed. This will further divide the archery community and make us more susceptible to attack by the antis and animal rights groups.

Wildlife managers will be asked to come up with a new plan… Who will they listen to if we divide into three factions: trad, comp, xbow? You can bet that the antis and animal rights groups will not hesitate to step in and suggest some new plans for us, and have a whole campaign to enlist the non-hunting public.

I am sure that the list goes on, and I have not even scratched the surface or even mentioned the fight that the compound manufacturers will put up. I suspect that they do not want to loose sales to the crossbow. And so on...


I am not the person to do it, but if you can figure out what the gaps are and how bridge the gaps and unite us all in a common season, without giving up any ground – we will all win. From what I’ve seen here in Colorado, if we falter and allow chaos to creep in, archers could loose a big part of what we hold dear. Go for it, but get your facts in line first. That means getting more input than what I could ever offer!!!

[awshucks]

BT: Good points, but history tells me it won't usually last that long.
Here's a link to a thread w/ a map that basically says:
Legal for all archery 7 states
Partial archery season 4 states
Handicapped 18 states
Firearms season 14 states
Illegal 2 states
Breath tube for disabled 1 state
www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2509535&mpage=2

Guess now would be a good time to point out that in no state that has allowed xbow use has a season or bag limit been shortened due to xbow harvest.

Smj: Peta and Hsus already don't want you hunting w/ anything.

[smj]

awshucks said:

Smj: Peta and Hsus already don't want you hunting w/ anything.

Absolutely understood! It just really irritates me when we needlessly provide them with oppotunities.

[awshucks]

I should really stop by here more often. Just read the entire 7 pages on the other thread and am very much impressed w/ the class shown here by both sides of the issue.

I'm going to ignore my own advice due to that observation and BT's post about how debate in this manner can be beneficial.

Smj: I don't understand your point on how Peta and Hsus have more opportunity to try and shut down among alot of other things, archery hunting due to an influx of xbow users? What am I missing here? Surely you don't mean there is any form of hunting that either of those two groups will endorse? I realize the word "anti" covers more than just those two, but they are the main groups we are having to deal w/.

[kurt]

Wow, some really good stuff being said here. Not sure just where to jump back in, - so I think I will print the last few postings off, underline the high points & then post back. May not be until tomorrow (being as how I have to work today)

Kurt