Expansion of crossboews in WI

[kurt]

OK, here goes, don't know how far I will get before going to work. --- First I want to agree with BT & the terms of "constructive debate" - This is the only way anything is going happen &/or be settled. Ultimately, in some form or another, there will be change & that will be because of debate & regardless of the change there will always be those that are unhappy with it. Its called pride, - & as the saying goes, --- "pride goeth before a fall. --- What I do know about debate, is that generally, in the end, truth & facts, generally win out over fears & sentimemts!!! (not always, but generally) Ultimately, (at least in my opinion) wether minds change or not, is really irrelevant, because its not so much a question of "who" is right, as it is a question of "what" is right.

awshucks wrote; - Usually what the debates boil down to is a fear of crossovers from the gun hunters wanting a shot at the long archery deer seasons in most states.

Indeed, at least from what I can see, that is really the bottom line. FEAR --- Fear, that "if we don't keep a tight & restrictive handle on it, we might have to share the woods with others. (heaven forbid) But then as I said before, - doesn't that attitude in & of its self contradict the mission statement of the archery clubs that say part of their mission is to promote the sport of bow hunting???

Really, this (fear) is reflected in all of what smj posted (which I will comment more on later) The shame in this is that it is a kind of, --- "cut my nose off in spite of my face" --- kind of mentality. (I do not mean to offend anyone here, just trying to expose the "root" of the problem & will clarify when I post more comments to what smj wrote)

awshucks wrote; - I don't understand your point on how Peta and Hsus have more opportunity to try and shut down among alot of other things, archery hunting due to an influx of xbow users?

I "think what smj was trying to say, is that as a result of our own infighting, it opens the door for the anti hunting groups to further promote their agenda. The old "united we stand, divided we fall" thing.

Kurt

[BT]

kurt said:

awshucks wrote; - I don't understand your point on how Peta and Hsus have more opportunity to try and shut down among alot of other things, archery hunting due to an influx of xbow users?

I "think what smj was trying to say, is that as a result of our own infighting, it opens the door for the anti hunting groups to further promote their agenda. The old "united we stand, divided we fall" thing.

Kurt

There is a valid point to be had in that statement IMO
The enemy will cherry pick idea's and statements which they wouldn't have known or thought of ... potentially
Everyone has to remember that just because our sport may seem crystal clear to everyone.....it isn't
A word spoken in opposition and supported with an educated opinion adds steel to the oppositions sword that they use in the war against us.

( With that said ..... if something is truly wrong and we try to hide it rather than eliminate it....we become what the opposition accuses us of being )

[Greg Krause]

Here in NY, i wouldn't mind the crossbow itself..........I mind the guys that are pushing for it. Like it of not a large number of gun hunters here are slobs and poachers. They are the guys who don't think it's fair that we get to have a longer season and "first" crack.
Crossbows will just give them longer to act like they do during gun season.

The crossbow itself dosen't frighten me at all. It is in fact less efficient than a regular compound.
If it would help get new hunters involved in hunting than it would be worth it. The problem is in NY, very few new hunters will be affected. For starters you have to be 14 to hunt with a bow and 16 with a gun! That is insane. There should be no age limit as long as your licensed parent was with you.
I wouldn't mind the crossbow in the gun/ML seasons for now, at least to see how it works out. It's funny, most of us here pretty much hunt right through the gun season with our bows, because we enjoy bow hunting. I doubt you'll see the guys pushing for crossbows putting down the bangsticks during gun season. They just want an "easy" way to extend their season.

Maybe if NY would really crack down on illegal activity with heavy fines and jail time and reduce the minimum age of hunters, we would really see the good qualities of the cross bow.


I'm not "anti-crossbow", in fact I have my eye on a Stryker. if they open a season I will at least give it a shot.

[smj]

awshucks said:

I should really stop by here more often.

Smj: I don't understand your point on how Peta and Hsus have more opportunity to try and shut down among alot of other things, archery hunting due to an influx of xbow users? What am I missing here? Surely you don't mean there is any form of hunting that either of those two groups will endorse? I realize the word "anti" covers more than just those two, but they are the main groups we are having to deal w/.

I agree with you on that - everyone should stop by here more often! This is a great group of folks here and BT has worked hard to keep it that way!

As to giving any advantage to peta and/or Hsus or others... Maybe things are a bit different in other states, but here in Colorado the attack on our hunting rights is relentless. They keep chipping away at what is currently defined as our "rights" and the trend is to reduce them until they become ineffectual or can be eliminated. Here is an example - the anti's went after leg hold traps. Not to eliminate trapping, just the leg hold trap. After a big smear campaign, and zero opposition (trappers are a small group) the leg hold trap was eliminated, the law changed. Result: Trapping is all but dead in Colorado now. They won and we didn't even make a fuss over it. There was attempt against archery as of late, an attempt to redefine the length and time of the archery season. Some had stated that there should be two seasons: trad and compound. What came back, I believe, was a single 5 day season for archery. Probably add in a new rifle season or two. This didn't go anywhere, but it could have. Why was it ever even suggested??? I maintain that it was suggested because of division among archers over what type of bow you carry to hunt with. What might happen over division resulting from xbow introduction?

So all I am saying that if we pick sides based on what gear we hunt with, then as a group we are smaller and more susceptible to attack... Just like the trappers were. If we can stay united, we present a strong front that is much more capable of defending our hunting rights. This is why I say proceed with caution, keep the emotions in check, and come up with good input and compromises that dovetail well with what is already in place. I am not saying don't rock the boat - I am saying don't sink the boat!

That help at all? If not, maybe I am just way out in left field and should just shut up!!! ;D

[royden]

Yeah your in left field smj - colorado Lucky dog with elk everywhere not even trying to hide in the really thick stuff

Personally I agree with smj - crossbows should be in a blackpowder season - and perhaps also in archery season as a handicap licencse.

I don't see crossbows as an advantage. They are big, bulky and noisy. The only plus is you can can pre-draw and be cocked and loaded.

I also try to stay open minded, however this has left me in the position of not having a posistion as I am still waiting to firm up an opinion based on input from people who have used both.

Montana is in a difficult archery position right now. We have a lot of archery hunters who are primarily rifle hunters but want to chase elk during archery season. I think our "fix" will be to limit people to either rifle or bow but not both. The draw back to the current status is that a lot of archery hunters don't practice enough because they know they can still go out later with a rifle.

smj - wouldn't a 5 day season be nuts? How long is the rifle season for you and what is the success rate? Here the elk are real spread out and it takes a week just to start finding 'em and learning their patterns. 7-9 days average to kill an elk here I think. (Next year I'm taking off a whole week instead of doing my usual and just hunting weekends. I hope that will be more effective and fun and the boss is just gonna have to deal with it.)

Kurt - enjoy your posts. I also have hooked and my hunting partner is 65 or so and hooked for 15 yrs or so in washington. Lucky for him he didn't get too hurt and gets around real well.

[awshucks]

I'll be 61 in a few days. i started out at 8 yrs old on a farm in Illinois w/ a 25# lemonwood stick bow that no one in my family knew how to string even, lol I spent the next several years flinging and hunting for flung arrows that missed the Tide soap box stuffed w/ rags. Arrows were .35 cents @ or 3 for a buck at the Piggly Wiggly. I used to sort through every arrow in the display to buy a couple. Bring back any memories for you guys? Graduated to a recurve many years later, managed to take a few deer w/ it. Time constraints put it and practice on a back shelf where it stayed. Lost a rotator cuff several years ago and now that I have the time to once again attempt to master the long bow[ha ha] I don't have the health. i feel sorry for the kids of today that are going to miss what I didn't.

That leaves me w/ the xbow. I have two of them now, have had several over the years. The bad shoulder took me out of competing w/ muzzle loaderes, the xbow puts me back in the offhand game as the recurves are light enough in the front for me.

Sorry to get O/T here, but wanted to let y'all know I've shot both alot. The previous statements made about hanging together or hanging apart are as true today as they were in the 1700's when originally stated.

For many years the xbow was only legal in three states. W/ the current rate of acceptance it's only a matter of time. Part of the reason for this is the compliation of data from there advanced use in states that keep stats. Wi and Md have allowed them for seasoned citizens and have had huge increases in hunter participation above 65. Many of these hunters spent years in the field w/ conventional bows, but while no longer able to draw them, still don't qualify for disability permits. The forums abound w/ stories of guys taking their kids w/ them in ground blinds and exposing them to hunting via the xbow before they are capable strength wise to pull a vert back. Sorry for the long post.

[kurt]

Hi smj

To start with, there are a couple of things that you have said that I have to disagree with, they are, - "Now, I am not one of those in the “know” on this, but I’ll give you my thoughts on it (and) I am not the person to do it, but if you can figure out what the gaps are and how bridge the gaps"

From what I can see you are just the kind of guy "needed" in helping to bring resolution to all of this. you are intelligent &/or knowledgeable as well as reasonable. You bring good stuff to the table, - "really good " stuff !!! The kind of stuff "needed" for a conclusion that results in a good deal - "we all win" - ending. So lets look at some of that stuff.

To start with you wrote; - I can not imagine anyone who truly cares for this sport not wanting to see something done to help keep you in the game as long as possible.

This goes right back to what I have mentioned before about the "root" of the problem and people running on their personal fears and feelings, rather then on truth & fact. --- Or as you said in one of your post, - "Add to that the greedy nature of man"

The "really heavy" opposition, to Xbows, in fact, comes from people that - "truly cares for this sport" - which is in the first place, exactly why they are in opposition to the Xbow. It is why they belong to archery clubs, holding their tournaments, giving out awards, & discussing &/or taking action on the issues !!! I can't & don't fault them for this. They are standing up for something that they honestly believe in, & I can most certainly respect that !!!

However, with that said - it doesn't change the fact, that their position on it "creates" a problem for guys like me !!! --- So ultimately, - when it comes right down to it,- it is the position that they have taken, - that leaves me with little or no other choice then to take the position I have taken !!!

I am not sure how to go about saying this without offending some people that really honestly "think" they are doing the right & good thing by opposing Xbows. --- But DAM IT, - they really are looking at it from a very selfish point of view, without taking into consideration how it effects others. They want what what they cherish to be protected as an absolute right, - but also protected with terms &/or condition that assure them the protection of privilege. "Special Privilege" !!! --- They can't see past their own dedication &/or ability.

I don't think they even realize it, - but the reality of it is that what they are saying is, - "if you can not meet MY expectations, - then you do not qualify to enjoy the same privileges, interests &/or rights that I demand law to protect, - "for ME" --- If you don't have the physical ability that I have, to use the same equipment that I use, to do what I do (even though there is equipment that would allow you to do what I do) to bad, - so sad, - tuff luck, - go fishing instead.

Or for that matter, forget the physical ability thing,- but if you do not have the time &/or dedication that I have to go to the range & become as good & proficient as I am, with the same equipment that I use, then, to bad, - so sad, - tuff luck, - go fishing instead.

My point here being is that its not their dedication to what they believe in being wrong, - but rather it is the mentality behind it. - It is a selfish, me myself & I, - kind of thinking, to the point of discriminating prejudice. And again I am truly sorry if I offend anyone by say this. Offending people is not my intent.

Again, - I have to go back to the "logistics" of the shot !!! I have gained absolutely NO advantage over vertical bow hunting, by hunting with crossbow, - because "in fact" absolutely nothing has changed when it comes to the "requirements" need to get & take the shot !!!

I will post more concerning the issues you pointed out being faced in this controversy & will post them by starting a new thread titled, - Issues Facing The Xbow.

Kurt

[kurt]

On Dec. 29th skipmaster1; - Here in NY, i wouldn't mind the crossbow itself..........I mind the guys that are pushing for it. Like it of not a large number of gun hunters here are slobs and poachers. They are the guys who don't think it's fair that we get to have a longer season and "first" crack. Crossbows will just give them longer to act like they do during gun season.

Why is it that such a "large number" of vertical bow hunters seem to have this attitude. I mean the attitude that they are the only ethical hunters & all others are slobs & poachers. - The fact is, when it comes to hunters (in general) you are always going to find some that have a slobish poachers attitude. I personally know of a fair number of vertical archers (5 or 6 that I know) that sit in their kitchen drinking coffee, wait for a deer to come to the bate pile in their back yard & then shaft it out their open back door. (done with an archery license during archery season, so technically it's legal) but it hardly falls under the rules of fair case established by Pope & Young??? - I suppose because I know these guys, I could say most (or a large number) of vertical archers are slobs & poachers

If you really look into it, I am willing to bet,that you will find, that in NY, like most other states, the people "pushing" for Xbow are vertical archers, that due to physical impairments &/or disabilities, are just trying to stay in the game.

Skipmaster1 wrote: - Maybe if NY would really crack down on illegal activity with heavy fines and jail time and reduce the minimum age of hunters, we would really see the good qualities of the cross bow.

"Maybe" you are just to focused on the FEW bad boys out there to really see he MANY good guys. You know, one black eye, makes the hole face look ugly. None of use like "the few" that give us a black eye, - it makes us all look ugly. This includes the vert. guys I know that shoot deer out their back door. Just the kind of thing the real antis love, because it makes us all look bad.

United we stand, divided we fall, --- & united, we are not!!!

Kurt

[BT]

kurt said:

On Dec. 29th skipmaster1; - Here in NY, i wouldn't mind the crossbow itself..........I mind the guys that are pushing for it. Like it of not a large number of gun hunters here are slobs and poachers. They are the guys who don't think it's fair that we get to have a longer season and "first" crack. Crossbows will just give them longer to act like they do during gun season.

Why is it that such a "large number" of vertical bow hunters seem to have this attitude. I mean the attitude that they are the only ethical hunters & all others are slobs & poachers. - The fact is, when it comes to hunters (in general) you are always going to find some that have a slobbish poachers attitude. I personally know of a fair number of vertical archers (5 or 6 that I know) that sit in their kitchen drinking coffee, wait for a deer to come to the bate pile in their back yard & then shaft it out their open back door. (done with an archery license during archery season, so technically it's legal) but it hardly falls under the rules of fair case established by Pope & Young??? - I suppose because I know these guys, I could say most (or a large number) of vertical archers are slobs & poachers

If you really look into it, I am willing to bet,that you will find, that in NY, like most other states, the people "pushing" for Xbow are vertical archers, that due to physical impairments &/or disabilities, are just trying to stay in the game.

I think you really have to look at this statement as a regional description because it is true.
The fact of the matter is that where skipmaster1 lives , he is closer to an area of people that are just as described.
I myself live close enough to have witnessed just what he is saying and in fact , it's pretty much common knowledge that you stay clear of the deer woods during gun season simply because of the influx of the burrow boys into the adjoining woods surrounding NY city
This travel route encompasses 1/3 of the state....at minimum and therefore , this is the result.

As to slob hunters....
it is more about your attitude that is formed by what you see.
If That's what you see , that's what you know.
I myself get sucked into this mindset from time to time.
I hang around a pretty upper crust crew when it comes to hunting ethics so by contrast , the gun hunters I know look bad in as much as the way they express thier attitudes towards thier intended targets.

I grew up in a house which owned a very large gun shop and I know for a fact what attitude comes with the firepower.
Not everyone fits that description of course but in truth....it can be a lazy mans game and that's why lazy people play that game.
Lazy breeds alot of bad habits and attitudes
I could go on and on but to be honest....I have found that on the whole....in my area....gun hunters are by and large a slob society

I have also found plenty of the same sentiment and attitudes in the archery family's which I have shared but it's far less wide spread.
To date , I have definitely spent twice as much time with bowhunters as opposed to gun hunters and I can say quickly and confidently that the poor attitudes are far less evident in the archery community.
I think that is due to the fact that archery isn't a lazy mans sport
A lazy guy can grab a bow but whats gonna happen in most cases?.....he will end up getting tired of missing and wounding and having nothing to show for his time.
That's why I meet far fewer dual weapons folks anymore.....each to thier attitude I believe.

Trust me.....I understand what and why you are saying what you are saying but the fact is that every area has it's differences and NY is different!

[kurt]

Hi BT

I think I understand what you are saying. I have seen this kind of thing to (in Wisconsin) However, I am not so sure that it equates to "most" gun hunters being slobs & poachers. I think it is a matter of numbers (& maybe some others factors) Meaning that there are vastly more gun hunters & so you are going to naturally have more bad apples, which means that the problems are going to be more evident.

Doesn't change the fact that there are also bad apple archers. Its just that its less evident, because there are less numbers to Begin with.

Kind of goes to the stat. aweshucks post concerning gun violations compared to archery violations

Kurt