Momentum V.S. Kinetic Energy

[Doegirl]

Apr 24, 2010 23:29:16 GMT -5 SPIKER said:

My philosophy is that you can't kill it, if you can't hit it. That's the cornerstone of my belief that a faster arrow is always a better choice for me.

Up in a tree, distance is always a bit of a challenge , and the less I have to guess, the smoother the act of aiming, and releasing goes.

I hunt Whitetail, and don't believe there is a one that can stand up to my rig...I have always gotten passthroughs into the dirt with a fast, light set up, and will stick with what works.

Two holes are always better than one.

Exactly my way of thinking as well.
Ducking the arrow will be forever a problem with whitetails, unless your shooting close and/or fast enough.
My current hunting arrows weigh 260 grains
At 50lbs, 25.5", I clock in at 290fps. My current bow draws on the long side so I had to shorten up a 1/2".
I've blown through a scapula and a rib on a mature doe with a rig that generates almost 10lbs less kinetic energy than my current rig. Mind you, that would be the flat thin part of the scap and not the ridge. That would not happen if I hit that thick ridge.
Now, if I draw Maine Moose tag, my setup will probably change. Here I got a big animal that won't duck with huge vitals. Basically, I'll find an arrow that my Silver Flames like and bumps up my KE a bit. Probably no more than 400grains total arrow weight.

[SPIKER]

Apr 24, 2010 23:50:59 GMT -5 Doegirl said:

Apr 24, 2010 23:29:16 GMT -5 SPIKER said:

My philosophy is that you can't kill it, if you can't hit it. That's the cornerstone of my belief that a faster arrow is always a better choice for me.

Up in a tree, distance is always a bit of a challenge , and the less I have to guess, the smoother the act of aiming, and releasing goes.

I hunt Whitetail, and don't believe there is a one that can stand up to my rig...I have always gotten passthroughs into the dirt with a fast, light set up, and will stick with what works.

Two holes are always better than one.

Exactly my way of thinking as well.
Ducking the arrow will be forever a problem with whitetails, unless your shooting close and/or fast enough.
My current hunting arrows weigh 260 grains
At 50lbs, 25.5", I clock in at 290fps. My current bow draws on the long side so I had to shorten up a 1/2".
I've blown through a scapula and a rib on a mature doe with a rig that generates almost 10lbs less kinetic energy than my current rig. Mind you, that would be the flat thin part of the scap and not the ridge. That would not happen if I hit that thick ridge.
Now, if I draw Maine Moose tag, my setup will probably change. Here I got a big animal that won't duck with huge vitals. Basically, I'll find an arrow that my Silver Flames like and bumps up my KE a bit. Probably no more than 400grains total arrow weight.

I can't wait to "not see" the next deer I shoot get hit at 349fps, with 90+ KE with a 5gpp arrow. I couldn't see the arrows hit at 305fps.

[BT]

Apr 24, 2010 21:31:54 GMT -5 Konrad said:

I too have read a lot of discussion on this matter of folks trying to calculate the best killing combination and many are caught in the Kinetic Energy trap where speed is everything. Indeed, range estimation becomes less critical but merely striking the target is not sufficient when hunting. A K.E. calculation is the result of all of the moving energy possessed by the projectile (rotational, oscillation, vibration and forward travel combined). One can not draw any direct conclusions about any given arrow’s killing ability from KE calculations alone.

If this were true, the 7x57 Mauser round should stop a bull elephant charge every time.
Look at all the kinetic energy that 140 grain bullet possesses (2,200 ft. pounds)!
Sadly, this has been proven incorrect on many occasions. I know, I know Bell killed a thousand of elephant with this round but NOT stopping charges. They were well executed brain shots and he rarely took a questionable shot (he had seen too many of his buddies turned into red mud). He relied upon correct placement and penetration of a full metal jacket.

Welcome to the forum

The problem with this senerio is that a bullet does not perform on impact as does an arrow.
The full metal jacket is a better senerio but again....it does not address the true infuance on the arrow...which comes from the limb dinamics of the bow itself.

As we have proven here....the bow alone can influance the penetration rate of an arrow of the same weight....reguardless of the matching speed of the bows...be it recurve or compound.
This is where Ashby is truely out of his eliment and shows it in his recent writings.
The draw force dynamic and rebound dynamic, as well as the percentages of each over any distance between full draw and recovery are what gives more weight to the arguement and what can make the momentum camp correct and the K.E. camp correct at the same time.
It depends on the weapons design.

Beyond that...the broadhead will have more effect on penetration within a 100grain weight spread than the arrow weight alone will have.
This is why I wil caution against heads that have cutting areas over 1 1/4" .... reguardless of the successful outcomes that others have had with larger heads.
There is always a worst case senerio....


I really like your post but I just cant get through it all at this time

Again....welcome to the site

[DocHolladay]

This may have been posted on here elsewhere, but I will post it here for discussion sake. I watched it a week or 2 ago and dont remember where I saw it.

[BT]

I saw the above video a long time ago and it was pathetic. A bunch of red necks that don't know anymore about bowhunting (seemingly) than I know about composing music.

First of all it was a broadhead that failed on impact (same head did the same thing in testing right here on this site) and the way it failed would have stopped any arrow.
The blade was impacted in the retainer at the back of the ferrule while the forward portion came out and acted as a jam.
Just like a chair pushed under a door knob.

Secondly, That is a heavy arrow and a slow bow (The bow weight is irrelevant) which (as evidenced on this thread) impedes penetration all on it's own when speaking to compound bows.

Thirdly... The aluminum arrows diameter would have added even greater drag had the head actually gotten through the shoulder.
These guys were attempting to make a point and they did... just not the point they were hoping to make.

The point they made was that they are not educated enough to be attempting to educate anyone. They must be AT members ;D

[Greg Krause]

Remember that huge hog I shot in PA. I was using a light arrow by traditional standards. I was using a 49# longbow with a beeman max4 arrow with a 125 grain Simmons razor shark. Total arrow weight 430 grains. I blew through that monster hog like it was nothing at 18 yards! Having a good head and a well tuned set up goes a long way!

[BT]

I remember that like it was last week. That is a beautiful hog and that's saying alot for a pig

I saw every shot and every shot went through that hog as if it were fired from a gun. Your right in saying that a well tuned arrow is more important than anything after it. The only thing as important is the one thing before it ... In front of the arrow that is.