It's early but this caught my attention

[BT]

Primo's bought out and warranty is out the window.
(pretty much)

I was talking (not so long ago) about the cost of arrows and this is symptomatic of the above
The idea of bigger companies producing more products at lower costs and then passing those savings on to the customer is bunk

What is it now? .... three companies that are buying out everyone seemingly.
Anyone seen prices falling and services increasing?

I remember when Bear archery was first sold and it felt like deception to most people.
Bear was Fred Bear....not AMF or whoever it was that first bought them out.
(As I said.....it's early)
If it weren't for Fred sticking with that manufacturer as a spokesman , it would have been over for Bear Archery
What happened to Bear? ..... down the toilet.
It was an eye opener as to what was going to happen in the future

This is the future ..... it's here.
All the old lines are owned by mass enterprise and the best new blood is being bought out as soon as they are established.
It's no different than the Mob
Someone builds something good and the corporations crush them if they dont sell out.
I am just about sick to death of it because it isn't helping me to be anything more than dependant on a company that views me as a paycheck.

Thank God I went to the stick
When this crap hits critical mass I will just walk away from it
Perhaps....and I really mean this ....
Perhaps this is a coming boon for the traditional guys

I look at it this way...
Traditional archery has a few very positive things going for it as to the mechanics of the product.
First .... It is fun first and foremost.
I do not remember a person who was not tickled to be able to shoot a stick and anyone can do it for maybe as little as $150. if they shop and buy everything.
(Forget about the do-it-yourselfers )

Secondly .... The satisfaction quotient is super high.
The stick is more like golf and we know how addictive that game is to many people.
It is what it is because of the huge learning curve.
You are not going to strap a longbow in a hooter shooter and shoot X's all day as you could with a compound....yet there are some people who could do nearly that.
It is the person that makes the stick not the bow who makes the person.
This is not the case with the compound

Now dont get me wrong! .... I am a gear head and truly love my compounds but it's just not the same ..... not even close to the same enjoyment that I feel with the stick
I am not alone ..... nearly 100% of the people I introduce to the stick can say the same thing within weeks or months.

I believe that I am seeing the pendulum at near the top of it's second swing and soon that pendulum will start it's path back towards where it came from
Especially for bowhunters.
Here is why I see this....

The bowhunter population is in direct correlation to population centers simply because of numbers.
Those population centers are expanding and along with policy , hunting grounds are shrinking.
Money is going to become the #1 concern for serious hunters.
At some point , a balance is going to have to come because it is pretty much the norm that archers cannot have the same toy for too long and they need places to use that toy.
Something is going to have to give and if I was to bet....I would bet against the equipment.

If the challenge becomes the quest again then equipment is going to take a back seat to skill and the need to display said skill will become paramount.
So .... I am talking about a transformation of the modern day bowhunter into what once was and will be (IMO) again ..... out of necessity.

[jamaltwy]

I like this post so I'm going to play devils advocate!!

Look at most things today there are only a few computer companies that make computers, TV's. telephone companies, airplane travel, etc....

when you had a lot you had crap companies that would get their product out and be damned cause they were out of business by the time their product failed, to me warranty was always out the window..... take trophy ridge a company bought out by escalade sports I felt customer service was outstanding when they owned it, now escalade is pushing that back to your dealer which is not a bad business model but know you are not giving the shop away and your dealer is getting 1 on 1 with you so when you are there you might buy something else while you are there!!!
I feel more companies less product that is good like baseball more teams less good pitchers that can go around when there was less teams better pitchers!!!!
To me Bear archery was going under now look at it it has gotten more publicity, better QC and is as popular as ever now working with primos it has doubled that!!

now to your second point please don't take this wrong because you don't do it !!
I don't want traditional to go the way of fly fishing too elitist!!!!!
this to me with be detrimental to the sport..... fly fishing is almost as expensive as some bows we shoot and if you look trad. bows are up in the 1k range now just as much as compound bows, bob lee, black widow to name a few!!

to me I like both and both can be had if you look around for not a lot of money but as you get addictive you can spend the same amount of money, but as i say its like fly fishing vs. bait casting!!

I whole heartily agree we need places too hunt to me hunting preserves or ranches is getting to where common man can't afford it.. this is where this is becoming a rich man sport!!

[BT]

jamaltwy said:

..... take trophy ridge a company bought out by escalade sports I felt customer service was outstanding when they owned it, now escalade is pushing that back to your dealer which is not a bad business model but know you are not giving the shop away and your dealer is getting 1 on 1 with you so when you are there you might buy something else while you are there!!!

AH HA! .... this is just what I am talking about.... in part
The company is not making about the customer but instead making it about the business or the extension thereof.
The customer is bound to the business model rather that the other way around.
Bowtech is case in point where they will not honor anything unless it is done through a dealer.
The dealer in turn sends it to Bowtech who does the warranty work and sends it back to the dealer.
The customer makes two round trips to the Dealer for nothing more than could have been accomplished by one on one.
This is done solely for the purpose of sale and has nothing to do with customer satisfaction.
It is the customer who has succumbed to the business model
Most know my views on Pro Shops and they are justified....over and over again

By contrast , the traditional manufacturer has no such constrictions placed on the customer and are far more complimentary in this respect.
Not to speak of the fact that thier equipment suffers far less warranty needed repairs....regardless of the comparison

I feel more companies less product that is good like baseball more teams less good pitchers that can go around when there was less teams better pitchers!!!!
To me Bear archery was going under now look at it it has gotten more publicity, better QC and is as popular as ever now working with primos it has doubled that!!

Lets look at this in view of an old saying....

The cream rises to the top in a bucket of milk...doesn't matter how much milk or how many buckets
Once the cream is separated the milk gets pitched and thats about how it works out with anything.
The people who buy the skim milk are the ones who have too because they dont have the money for the cream.
Soon even those that cannot afford the cream will differentiate what milk is better and that milk quality is based on the cow.
Soon you have farms full of Jerseys and a holstein cant be found
Now the Jersey cow is at top market price and prices increase with everyone benefiting.
There will always be teiring but with a large market place....the quality will be found and that word will spread , eliminating the foulest in short order.

By contrast....when there is only one farm you have a huge divergence as the farmer still gets top dollar for the cream and still sells the worst milk at the same top dollar.
Why?.....because he doesn't have to spend the money on jerseys.
He instead can buy the cheap holsteins
The holsteins stay at market low levels and the jersey market tanks because now any cow will do.
The farmer and the wealthy are unaffected and the poor suffer.
Typical!

now to your second point please don't take this wrong because you don't do it !!
I don't want traditional to go the way of fly fishing too elitist!!!!!
this to me with be detrimental to the sport..... fly fishing is almost as expensive as some bows we shoot and if you look trad. bows are up in the 1k range now just as much as compound bows, bob lee, black widow to name a few!!

to me I like both and both can be had if you look around for not a lot of money but as you get addictive you can spend the same amount of money, but as i say its like fly fishing vs. bait casting!!

The diffrence is that almost nobody can build a good fly rod but by contrast , anyone can build an effective bow
This fact will keep the true archer alive and well.
Also , as to price.
A good custom recurve can last 20 or more years with little or no losses seen whereas the compound would have been replaced maybe 5 times over that time period.
Also...resale is a factor.
I can re-sell a recurve at times for more than it cost after a few years or more.
Never has a compound seen this occurrence within the market place
Also (alot of also's here ) parts for an old compound are vanishing faster as each year brings models which eliminate other models
It's a vacuum

I whole heartily agree we need places too hunt to me hunting preserves or ranches is getting to where common man can't afford it.. this is where this is becoming a rich man sport!!

Yes it is but we cant fix everything today

[SPIKER]

Unless you have daddies longbow, or old compound, this is a rich man's sport already....just add up all the accessories, along with that '08 bow you just bought, and tell me where the "it's coming to" is......it's here, whe are just too addicted to be able to stop.....

[BT]

spiker said:

......it's here, we are just too addicted to be able to stop.....

;D

No...it's not here ... yet
You just have expensive tastes

There is a plethora of recurves , longbows out there which are top notch quality for $300 - 500.
Less if you buy second hand off ebay or such.

Even Compounds .... there are some left in the $500. range that are very good but the ground is sinking below us as we speak

[jamaltwy]

BT

you sure you don't have a little oppressed little man in ya??? ???sure sounding like the brothers man!!!! ;D

we shall over come!!! ;D ;D

[Doegirl]

Even some of the so-called "mid-range" bows have out of sight prices. Case in point is the Diamond line, the Marquis and Black Ice will set you back $650-700. What's midrange about that ?
But, people will pay it just for the bragging rights and the label. Extreme examples of brand worship exist over on AT. They're image conscious to the point of being pathological.
My point is I don't think it's entirely the fault of the bow companies or their current owner(s). If the consumer is willing to pay ridiculous prices for a product, it's only natural that a company will happily oblige.

[jamaltwy]

but that is just it Bear is a mid price company and pretty much has stayed that way!!! truth 2 price point is 599-699 i belive? look at mathews in the last year they came out with the mission line to meet a target market... but as every has pointed out if we make em' they will buy em'..... hoyt , mathew, bowtech will lower their prices if bows stop selling... you all me include complain about gas prices but we still drive our cars don't we??// nobodies buying little hybrids!! i'm still driving my suv but i'm not a little guy and i can't get out of some of those little gas pinching machines without putting my hands on the ground and pushing up!!!

[Greg Krause]

You can still pick up a Bowtech Tomcat pacakge, ready to go for around $550.00

A Bear for even less.

But yes, prices are going through the roof because "we" are willing to pay it.

[bowman]

Martin Archery makes some quality bows at low prices. There Saber line around is around $300, Bengal is $399, The new Moab is $429. and you can get the new Firecat for $500 and that is rated at 335 fps IBO.And these 300 to 500 dollar bows can kill a deer just like those 750 dollar bows. It's all a matter of taste . most of the public is of the mentality these days if it costs more it's got to be better.
www.martinarchery.com/