Trophy Hunters

[BT]

I would shoot this one

[BT]

Now I get this. But you aren't gut shooting them just to get them either. I know that if it wasn't a shot you could make... you just wouldn't take the shot.

That's a big difference from the way the "Pro Hunters" today carry themselves. You are more like the regular old Hunter

Apr 18, 2013 23:56:35 GMT -5 Greg Krause said:

I have taken a pile of does and few nice mature bucks over the past few years though. I hunt mature bucks for the challenge. I like to find an old warrior and focus on him for a while each season. I don't care about the rack, its the age. It's learning so much from all the deer I pass. It;s watching a nice young buck walk away and wonder if I'll ever outwit him again with a few more years under his belt. It's the feeling of accomplishment I get.It has nothing to do with anyone else's standards, ideas or approval.

2011 with the compound. 210#'s and 5.5 years old


2011 with the longbow. 245#'s and 6.5 years old


2012 with the compound. 190#'s and 5.5 years old

[Greg Krause]

Apr 18, 2013 23:53:59 GMT -5 BT said:

I have to admit it... I am a slick head killer ;D
I just dont care about a buck unless it is 135 it seems.
I shot a 135 in Ohio the first year we got here because he caused me to draw. Smaller Bucks just dont cause me to draw

Now with that said...

I cant resist a Doe for nothing ;D
I will shoot 100 slick heads if 100 walk by me

I love them too! January 2010, longbow. Well below freezing. Doe down and I couldn't have been happier!

[Greg Krause]

Now I get this. But you aren't gut shooting them just to get them either. I know that if it wasn't a shot you could make... you just wouldn't take the shot.

That's a big difference from the way the "Pro Hunters" today carry themselves. You are more like the regular old Hunter

I would never consider that. As I said, I only hunt for me and I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I did that. I've had such strong ethical values instilled in me from such a young age. I feel horrible when a shot that should have been ideal, ends up being not so perfect.

[BT]

Apr 19, 2013 0:08:14 GMT -5 Greg Krause said:

I would never consider that. As I said, I only hunt for me and I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I did that. I've had such strong ethical values instilled in me from such a young age. I feel horrible when a shot that should have been ideal, ends up being not so perfect.

But you know what?... there are people being educated today from these T.V. Pro's because they have nobody else to guide them. This is my problem with the direction of hunting today.
Deer hunting has become a sport and hunting does not have any roots in sport. It can be but when you set the wrong goals in order to rate success... you taint the act of hunting.

Here is what I am saying....

1970's (40 years ago) The stated goal of Bowhunting hunting was to enjoy the act of hunting by way of complicating the means of hunting, while having some expectation of success.

1980's (30 years ago) The stated goal of Bowhunting was to enjoy the act of hunting by increasing success rates in the field via Bow design improvements, equipment upgrades such as dial in range finders, custom camouflage, bow accessories, hand climber stands and improved broadhead design pertaining to penetration.

1990's (20 years ago) The stated goal for bowhunting was to increase success rates via upgrades to Arrow weight, Bow speed, Bow accessories, laser rangefinder, self climber stands, camouflage, scent control products, artificial food plots, Trail Camera's & improved broadhead design pertaining to flight.

Turn of the Century (10 years ago) the stated goal for Bowhunting was to eliminate any complication in order to succeed.
Beyond the gadgetry associated with bowhunting gear came other seemingly expected requirements such as land leasing and enacting QDM policies for the stated goal of harvesting horns as a means of gauging the success of the hunt.

Now when I say gauging success of the hunt I don't mean hunt because there is VERY little hunting going on when "Pro Hunters" such as the Drury Brothers set up to kill anything. Even if the sport was to find and kill a large Buck it still isn't hunting because you don't have to hunt for something you own and have cared for from birth to 5-6th birthday.

I guess in my mind the word hunting (as to it's true meaning) has been replaced with finding. I have never felt as if I had succeeded in finding anything... I just found it.
If my dog was missing I just went outside and looked for him till I found him. It wasn't like I didn't know he was there and it wasn't like he didn't know I was there. I just found him.

This differs greatly from what I feel when I hunt something and catch it. If I am hunting I am looking for a deer rather than a dog, I assume the deer is there but I do not know where it is, when I will see it or if I will even see it at all. To add to the act of hunting is the fact that what I am looking for does not know I am there (hopefully) and if it does... I never will know it was there before it is gone.

As to the equipment...

If I wanted to be assured of taking my deer home I would use a rifle and a 7mm most likely.
At 300 yards I don't have to worry about scent control, camouflage, tree stands or anything else. All I have to do is see, point and shoot. This is the reason I don't go deer hunting with a gun.... it's just not much of a challenge and I am too fat to need all that x-tra food.

As to a Bow... whatever the bow it is there is more of a challenge, namely getting closer... which necessitates some tricks I will admit. But when does the bow start becoming more of a gun?. I would say that deer hunting (in my mind) with a revolver is pretty sporting and therefore any bow that I use that matches the ability of a hand gun has the same quality of sport to it.
When my bow exceeds the performance of a hand gun then the sport declines as well.
Take this thought process to it's logical end and the most sporting comes back to where it is more about the person with the weapon than it is the weapon.

In the act of Trophy hunting, the only goal is to take a trophy come hell or high water and therefore everything that can be used is used and since trophy hunting is a sport.... the act of taking is the objective... not the act of hunting itself.

This focus on the end result rather than the method is what has labeled trophy hunting as a blood sport. In many peoples minds, it is trophy hunting (as it is intended by many members of A.M.M.O.) that brought about organizations such as PETA.

Organizations such as PETA are sitting back and keeping their powder dry (as they did in the 60's) and letting the hunting community make enough rope to hang themselves (as they did in the 70's) in the court of public opinion.

Airing hunting shows that focus only on the kill (for the sake of the trophy) where inhuman practises such as gut shooting are displayed and spoken about as an act to secure a kill (despite the suffering inflicted with such a shot) is the rope being built.

Lack of editing where spine shots are witnessed (without immediate follow up) while the shooter now stands back to a wounded animal and talks to the camera in cold blooded fashion is the rope being built.

Shooting a deer and then having to wait until the next day to recover that deer, in weather that would undoubtedly spoil anything other than horns or where coyotes will ruin the flesh is the rope being built.

Trophy Hunting is something like alcohol in my mind. Most people like to have a beer or three and feel that high but when the only reason you drink is to get high and beer just isn't getting it done anymore, you move on to the hard stuff.
When you cannot be satisfied with a high and must be ripped to feel anything.... you are going to become a problem to those around you.

My view is that most (not all) "Pro's" are hard liquor types who only get out of bed to take care of an urge.
If this is how the public perceives us as a group we are going to (once again) face civil up rise as a group.

In today's environment I don't want to have to fight for a cause that has nothing to do with me and I don't want to fight a cause because I am assumed to be in league with the enemy.... As viewed by a population that is made up of 90% non-hunters.

As a community we need to reevaluate where we are headed and who is leading the way. Lets not be lemmings running towards the cliff.

[Greg Krause]

I agree with whst you are saying 100%, but its not just the trophy hunters. Around here we need to thin the deer herd in many areas. We have set up programs in suburban areas that have previously been off limits for hunting. It's a win-win for the hunters, the residents and the environment when done properly. Bowhunting has proven to be a safe, effective and inexpensive way to curb the growing deer population. The problem lies in the balance of hunting and slaughtering. I worked with a town in CT to help establish a hunting program to control deer. The problem was that the town board had the final say on how it ran and none of them were hunters. We were told on no uncertain terms that we were to shoot every deer that came by and we had a tag for. At first it was great, but by the end if the first year and all of the second, I was burned out. It wasn't hunting. I had no say in what I shot. I couldn't pass anything without the fear of getting kicked out. I tried to justify it by saying we needed numbers so the program could continue. There were too many deer and without this program they would splu call in white buffalo to use suppressed rifles over bait at night. I finally had enough and the program was proven to be effective,so I left. I spent the next couple of years hunting only for myself and felt rejuvenated. I look back and although what I did was not unethical or illegal and it did help legitimize Bowhunting as a management tool, I'm not entirely happy with how it all went down. What really bothered me was that no one else involved had any of the same feelings. They were more than happy to kill anything and everything, without any thought to respecting the deer or any thought to sound management. It was like a video game to them. I'm not saying I didn't have any fun, but it did wear on me. I'm seeing the mentality of "kill as many as I can because I can" running rampet in the younger generations of hunters. We need to be able to find a balance of actual hunting and deer management. If we don't, I'm afraid hunting as we know it will die out because of an overstimulated, instant gratification world.

[BT]

Apr 19, 2013 18:32:14 GMT -5 Greg Krause said:

I agree with whst you are saying 100%, but its not just the trophy hunters. Around here we need to thin the deer herd in many areas. We have set up programs in suburban areas that have previously been off limits for hunting. It's a win-win for the hunters, the residents and the environment when done properly. Bowhunting has proven to be a safe, effective and inexpensive way to curb the growing deer population. The problem lies in the balance of hunting and slaughtering. I worked with a town in CT to help establish a hunting program to control deer. The problem was that the town board had the final say on how it ran and none of them were hunters. We were told on no uncertain terms that we were to shoot every deer that came by and we had a tag for. At first it was great, but by the end if the first year and all of the second, I was burned out. It wasn't hunting. I had no say in what I shot. I couldn't pass anything without the fear of getting kicked out. I tried to justify it by saying we needed numbers so the program could continue. There were too many deer and without this program they would splu call in white buffalo to use suppressed rifles over bait at night. I finally had enough and the program was proven to be effective,so I left. I spent the next couple of years hunting only for myself and felt rejuvenated. I look back and although what I did was not unethical or illegal and it did help legitimize Bowhunting as a management tool, I'm not entirely happy with how it all went down. What really bothered me was that no one else involved had any of the same feelings. They were more than happy to kill anything and everything, without any thought to respecting the deer or any thought to sound management. It was like a video game to them. I'm not saying I didn't have any fun, but it did wear on me. I'm seeing the mentality of "kill as many as I can because I can" running rampet in the younger generations of hunters. We need to be able to find a balance of actual hunting and deer management. If we don't, I'm afraid hunting as we know it will die out because of an overstimulated, instant gratification world.

This is the result of sport hunting IMO.... as you speak to mentality. It's like a man who is war hardened (as it used to be referred to) to the point of becoming a killing machine. The humanity is lost to the excessive exposure to death and all that is left is a shell of a man.
Psychopaths share this same lack of humanity and at some point, anyone allowing themselves to kill without remorse or feeling for a long enough time will become hardened... Like a psychopath.

You do not have to be a killer to become warped (if you want to use this term) because anyone who is constantly exposed to killing for the sake of killing will lose their humanity to some degree. if not in total.
Sport hunting is killing for the sake of killing and it is everywhere.

We can see this thinning of the soul in examples such as the sexual revolution and during the video gaming age. When both started it was shock value that brought the attraction. As time progressed the shock value had to increase to bring the same audience... since everyone eventually became used to the shock and now considered it a norm.
Eventually we were not shocked by anything and all the while, we as a group became more numb to what we were seeing.

Slaughter house workers have long been studied and analyzed by those in the profession of psychology for just the reasons stated above. Slaughter house workers typically are viewed as an interesting group as to the effects suffered due to daily exposure in such an environment.
You really really don't want to get in a fight with a long term slaughter house worker... there is nothing there that understands mercy.

Knowing this (as it is a fact) makes me wonder why anyone would think that this desensitization to environment of any kind would somehow turn out differently.

It doesn't matter what we are talking about... pick something today that was the same back 60 years ago. This is referred to as progress but it is anything but. We are regressing as a group toward barbarianism. We are moving backwards mentally as we except the end result as the only result worth attaining.
This is what I have seen for some time and it is only getting worse (on all levels) everywhere.

I am getting a bit off track so back to the problem that we face as Bowhunters...

How do we combat this?. Are there enough sportsmen left to combat this?. That's the real question. If we have the numbers now then we better get a move on before we are outnumbered due to population growth within our ranks.
I used to agree with the statement that we (as hunters) need to bring more people into the group but now I am a bit alarmed at how those members are being added and the mentality of those members coming in.

I really am concerned... Check that... Worried.

[Greg Krause]

I think it's more than being numb. A lot of it (imo) has to do with the stresses on families and kids. Parents are working their butts off and kids are pressured to do too much in the way of extra curricular activities. It leads to dad not hunting anymore or when he does, his time is so limited that he goes by himself. If he is willing to take his kid, Jr. has prior engagements. No traditions are passed down and it isn't until later in life that Jr takes up hunting. When he does it is based on what he sees all around him, not what he has learned. Ego and jealousy seem to drive people in so many aspects of life and it just spills over into hunting. We as true sportsman have the opportunity to take these folks under our wing and even if it costs us our own hunting time, we must try. I am now very involved with another deer management program and love it. I made it clear at the beginning that I will help shoot does, but I will pass what I choose to pass. That was acceptable and the program is a huge success and I feel great about it. The guy running it was not a hunter and now has become a true hunter/sportsman with guidance from me and others. Every year we have new recruits, new to hunting and we are taking them under our wing. It doesn't always work, but it often does. I have no problem with a new guy shooting any deer he has a chance to, most of us have done it. Every deer really, truly makes them happy. We just have to help them realize that it isn't the only thing that matters and eventually they will come to find out what really matters to them. We have to show them that there is more to hunting than killing. We celebrate everyones success, we are more than happy to help others track and keep their spirits up when the trail gets tough. We have butchering parties, make sausage, make soap from tallow, make buckskin and harvest sinew. We all take turns dropping what we are doing to help each other out, even if it means a long night in miserable weather. We talk strategy and help tune bows and arrows. We help with shooting form, shot placement and gear selections. We are blood brothers, part of a very special fraternity, not competitors.

I am worried too, but I see the good that can be done every year. It is not hopeless. Just look at threads about hunting shows on Bowsite. Most folks despise them and have cancelled the outdoor channels

There is hope

[BT]

well that was the best post yet

That made me feel a whole lot better and you do make some valid points that need to be remembered when it comes to re-education. Congratulations Greg... Your doing great work out there

[Greg Krause]

This is a picture from this year. I had a deer, my friend Randy and a deer and my brother in law had a deer to butcher. We were in the middle of a nearly 2 week power outage. We all came together and spend an afternoon cutting some deer up outside in the cold. We had a blast. The boys were skinning and quartering, I was deboning and my wonderful wife(a lifelong vegetarian) and sister, trimmed and wrapped the meat. This is what hunting means to me. Its a solitary endeavor that brings groups of people together in a way that nothing else can.