Just the way it is....

[BT]

To further my point....
I became a big fan of expandables while shooting center mass during the early 80's.
Most all people who lost deer to expandables were either using piss poor designs or holding tight on the front leg (by their own admission) when asked about the circumstances that were present before the loss.

Large diameter expandables gave the experienced archer a far lesser chance of losses when used correctly....which was the crux of the problem.....since few knew how to use the advantage of the expandable.

On the occasion when a deer would be hit behind the lungs, the double mass of the expandable would often act to drop the deer within a reasonable distance due to the size of the wound.
A deer that was gut shot with a 1 1/2" expandable is going down fast....reguardless.

The issue against the expandable generally came from the users inability to understand mass and energy.
The energy of bows back then would not allow an average size expandable to penetrate major bone....so it was the broadheads fault by most peoples say so.

Anyway.....the same issues continue today in as much as (still) most people just don't shoot enough energy to blow a large head through good bone

[BT]

Oct 27, 2008 19:23:24 GMT -5 SPIKER said:

Oct 27, 2008 11:24:02 GMT -5 red said:

Yep...I like the red zone...double lung and lights out.

I always seem to hit the "white" dot... ;D

;D

[red]

Been lucky enough not to have a scapula shot on a deer. I did on a hog...I didn't get a pass through, but I got full penetration up to the fletching (he didn't go far...sounded like he got hit with a concrete block...Rocky Mountain Ti 100 shot from a 72 lb. High Country). Anyway, do you think my point of aim is too far forward Kris?

BTW: this use to be my go-to broadhead. Not sure why I stopped using it. I can't remember whether it has ever been tested?

[red]

Oct 27, 2008 19:23:24 GMT -5 SPIKER said:

Oct 27, 2008 11:24:02 GMT -5 red said:

Yep...I like the red zone...double lung and lights out.

I always seem to hit the "white" dot... ;D

Good one Spiker. ;D ;D Some deer are smart enough to put that out there to distract guys with short attention spans like us.

[BT]

No... think you have a good point of aim all around.
I wouldn't move that spot forward....thats for sure.....although many do.
It's a point of how far can you go with 100% safety in terms of clean kills.
While a 70+ pound (high energy) bow can blow through a scapula.....the average bow weight is 62# and the mass majority of bows out there are not tweaked from the manufacture or individual in reference to pulling those high K.E. numbers that can be related to those high weights.

[BT]

Here is what the norm has become and why IMO losses are so high in relation to what they would be/could be.

[SPIKER]

I think I'm proof of that statement this year. The doe I shot with the Spitfire was what I thought was a great shot..but I was aiming for the pocket. I thought that deer would be just beyond the clearing when I went down...and we know the outcome of that one..

The spiker had me go..."Nooooo!" As I felt it was too far back, and after talking to BT from the tree, and him telling me that the deer would be down, I felt a little better, and sure enough..there was the deer just outside the clearing...amazing..

Ahhh.that pic is exactly where I was aiming, and I hit a little higher than that spot..

[BT]

The yellow line above the dot represents the hardest area of the scapula.
This raised ridge will fold an average single blade broadhead if it is hit directly and with enough K.E. and it will most certainly stop the vast majority of multiblade heads that are launched from the average bow out there.

Last year I filmed Greg shooting a mature Doe in this same area of the scapula.
The arrow got perhaps 5" of penetration and broke the spine which is behind that portion of the scapula.
This....from a bow that is rated for the big 5

[Deleted]

Great post here, I agree 100% with you BT, I hold Away from the scapula as far as I can comfortably make myself.
Indeed a deer scap is tough, however I learned to stay away from this area by witnessing elk scaplulas STOP several different high powered rifle bullets in thier tracks.If they'll do that there is NO way I want to hit one there with a bow
Anything hit in the red circle is dead IMO, although I do prefer the bottom portion of that area myself.
Ster

[BT]

As you watch the image above the marked centerline of the skeletal deer, see how everything on that line (and forward of it) is vital.
Using this line, we have a huge margin for error on the forward section.
However, this leaves us with 0 margin for error on the other side of that center line.
Now it is a matter of deciding what error we can and cant live with

Personally, I cannot live with visible error
What I mean by visible error is a living breathing error that walks among us days,weeks and months after the error.....in sight of neighbors and camera's
That error which I am referring to is the error embedded through major bone.
Minimal penetration is 10" on a shoulder of a mature deer.
There is (estimated) 4" of flesh, 1/2" bone, 2" flesh (offside same leg) and then 1 1/2" of hide and rib cage.....and thats just to poke through into the chest cavity
Give another 2" to cut certain into the one lung that is in that chest cavity.
8" means a very real potential of carrying that arrow until either infection takes that deer or it simply over comes it's new appendage and starts posing for the local news crew

SO....for myself, I will opt the centerline with an expandable.

Just because I do that, does not mean that I am suggesting that others follow suite
Gut shooting a deer (for some) can mean loses based solely on environment or self.
Witness last year when I gut shot a lamb in Westchester.
We left that lamb to die and headed back a few hours later to collect it....only to find that the Yotes had beaten us to it
Another concern is other hunters, ect. who will haul that deer away from you if they get to it first
No.....my way is not the best way for everyone

Choosing the center point that rests between the turn centerline and the scapula is likely more acceptable for most.
In this instance I would caution the size (diameter) of the expandable that you might use and even suggest the consideration of a fixed head of modest size.