Best way to increase penetration ....

[BT]

Best way to increase penetration without adding bow weight..... Pro's/Con's

[/b]


With threads speaking about reducing actual draw weight on other forums recently, I figure that there are more than a few that are going to follow this path if not already on the path.

This subject is going to come up more as more people head in this direction. I think I will likely be one of those people next year as well.

My thoughts are to reduce the size of the broadhead itself and to increase the ferrule diameter by either finding a head that has a larger ferrule diameter than my arrow or by switching to an arrow that is smaller than my chosen head.
The thought being that reduced size of the head itself will reduce drag and the increased ferrule/decreased arrow diameter will also reduce drag.

The old AFC arrows and the new VAP shafts have a outsert that is larger than the arrow itself and it is obvious how that works to decrease drag of the arrow through hard material and bone.
A larger ferrule on the broadhead will achieve the same effect but I don't see heads that offer two sizes as was more common years ago.

I also believe that feathers add less resistance as opposed to vanes especially when centering a rib or hitting a scapula.
So feathers are another thing I am keeping on my set up, for the purpose of increasing penetration.

Obviously shooting away from any large bone and keeping the distance relatively close is adding to the chance of success but aside from that is there any other suggestion that you can make?.




*Figured this might be a good topic of discussion for some that are tired of fighting and would like to learn something.

[Doegirl]

Apr 20, 2013 1:55:36 GMT -5 BT said:

Best way to increase penetration without adding bow weight..... Pro's/Con's

[/b]


With threads speaking about reducing actual draw weight on other forums recently, I figure that there are more than a few that are going to follow this path if not already on the path.

This subject is going to come up more as more people head in this direction. I think I will likely be one of those people next year as well.

My thoughts are to reduce the size of the broadhead itself and to increase the ferrule diameter by either finding a head that has a larger ferrule diameter than my arrow or by switching to an arrow that is smaller than my chosen head.
The thought being that reduced size of the head itself will reduce drag and the increased ferrule/decreased arrow diameter will also reduce drag.

The old AFC arrows and the new VAP shafts have a outsert that is larger than the arrow itself and it is obvious how that works to decrease drag of the arrow through hard material and bone.
A larger ferrule on the broadhead will achieve the same effect but I don't see heads that offer two sizes as was more common years ago.

I also believe that feathers add less resistance as opposed to vanes especially when centering a rib or hitting a scapula.
So feathers are another thing I am keeping on my set up, for the purpose of increasing penetration.

Obviously shooting away from any large bone and keeping the distance relatively close is adding to the chance of success but aside from that is there any other suggestion that you can make?.




*Figured this might be a good topic of discussion for some that are tired of fighting and would like to learn something.[/quote]

One things for sure, last year when I tested out some broadheads, more often than not the arrow would get hung up by those stiff blazer vanes. Feathers, on the hand, just lay down and let the arrow pop through.
Smaller ferrule broadheads gave me the worst penetration, even with a smaller cut diameter. For instance, I took a 100 grain Spitfire and a 1" slick trick standard and fired both into a 5 gallon bucket filled with water. The winner? Not the slick trick ;D I can only attribute to how well the spitfire did because that head was so much wider in diameter than the arrow...

[BT]

No doubt the ferrule size makes a big difference when the target area is bone. Thats why the AFC shafts (years ago) and the new VAP shafts work so well in testing. All we need to do is find a broadhead company that will increase the ferrule I.D. that matches the diameter of a easton 2412 and we will be all set

[ccwilder3]

You can still find Bunker Busters. Still the most accurate head I've shot and great on bone strikes. However, try not to catch a big boar in the shield with one.

Really though, do you think the arrow diameter makes that much difference since the arrow is being lubricated with blood?

[BT]

Apr 25, 2013 13:09:24 GMT -5 ccwilder3 said:

You can still find Bunker Busters. Still the most accurate head I've shot and great on bone strikes. However, try not to catch a big boar in the shield with one.

Really though, do you think the arrow diameter makes that much difference since the arrow is being lubricated with blood?

I do. I have heard the lubricated shaft thoughts and seen them put to testing to prove out the assumptions. Back a long time ago (before AT) this was a big argument on Bowsite and there was a lot of theory being thrown out there on the subject.
Me being me.... I tested it.

Here is my theory based on what I saw.

Both shafts are going to be lubricated so that goes out the window. Once both are lubricated we are back to shaft diameter and length as to what resistance is in relation to the two arrows.
The thinner shaft just has less area and therefore does penetrate further.

Barry Wensel tried the AFC back in the 90's and hasn't looked back since. Barry is a traditional archer and sees the difference more so than his compound shooting brethren.
I saw the same thing in my testing.

The only thing that increases penetration on either shaft, to where they are relatively equal is an outset (you can foot either/any shaft) or a head that has a larger ferrule that the shaft it is attached to.
The only increased advantage (in this circumstance) is for the arrow with the smaller diameter outsert of the two arrows in question.

[jimg]

I agree 1000% that feathers do not hamper penetration. Plastic vanes on the other hand do. My personal testing and experiences in the woods have proven this to me.

[shootstraight]

3 things I don't like about blazers, they are stiff, high and don't weigh what they claim they do, much more when a set of 3 are weighed.

I've shot feathers and there are 3 things I don't like about them, the noise, the weight and what happens to them when wet.

As for myself nothing beats a 4" duravane. They weigh what they claim and for me the right amount, they aren't effected by weather and fly very quite. They also have no problems with drag being very flexible.

The problem with the weight of feathers is it gives my arrows too much foc causing the head to drop too much at greater distances. If the head weight was reduced to an 85 from 100 it may work well but the other problems still remain.

I think the thickness of the blades and their pitch has a lot to do with penetration, but penetration isn't the end game for me, I want massive blood lose and rapidly. I used a Mangus buzz cut recently on a good size deer (over 175lb.) The hit was on the money, the blood dripping of the shaft that passed clean through, but that's where the blood trail ended. Fortunately I was able to follow the trail without blood because every drop of it was piled up inside the cavity. Just before impact the deer reacted whirling around to flee causing the hide to stretch over the rib cage. When it straightened itself out the hide slipped back over the hole closing it off. It was dead, it was very dead, but finding it without blood was kind of nerve racking. The Buzz cut is a razor head.

I've tried other heads and none of them have sliced and diced like a 3 razor blade thunderhead. Blood always flows like crazy. Give me a head that makes crazy blood flow and all will be well.

I think the pitch of a trick is much greater than a razor blade making penetration more problematic. I don't know what they are but I'd bet 20 degrees isn't to far off, a razor blade is 14.

Nothing has made me bleed more without me knowing it than a broken toilet, that ceramic is so sharp you don't even feel it, just blood on the floor. Someone should make some ceramic heads. Them things would be deadly out of any setup.

[smj]

My observations to date - stiff plastic vanes hamper pass through, they do not hamper penetration, at least up until they impact the shot side of the animal. In most cases, an arrows length of penetration up to the fletching is enough to do the job. Blade angle seems to have the most effect on penetration. I shot caribou up in Canada with the Rocky Mountain Turbo. This tip flew great! I was shooting a Bowtech 82nd at 70 pounds with a 31 inch draw... At less than 20 yards, the broadhead made a pass through, but only when a few yards on the other side of the caribou. This was the case twice, different distances but the same result. my arrow is ~450 grains, traveling at over 300 fps. I had never seen one of my arrows only just make it through an animal. They usually blow through and hardly even slow down. Elk, mule deer, antelope - different heads, not the Turbo. NAP Nightmare is what I've been using now, just a bit less severe edge angle than the Turbo - I am back to blowing through again... Although, I've not been back to shoot a caribou again, so maybe they are just that much more tougher than, say, an elk... I doubt it! I have seen similar results with expanding heads that keep the blades out at severe angles, too. So for my money, you want penetration, keep your tip sharp and use blades that do not maintain severe angles. For me, the rest only matters if you are shooting with only small amounts of energy. If that is the case, two edges with the edge angle well laid back, an inch of width is plenty, bleeders if you need them and they fly well - but you'd want those laid back as well, and most of them are fairly steep. So I don't use them. Small energy - I'd say less than 45 foot pounds on the arrow.