adjusting brace height (long bow)?

[trap4life]

when adjusting brace height by twisting string tighter to increase BH , is there a specific way to do it. It just seems like my string is a different distance from the top limb than it is from the bottom limb. I dont know if this maters on a longbow like it would on a dual cam compound. Oh yea I have a byron ferguson patriot 60#. Thanks

[Greg Krause]

No, just twist the string. The difference between the string and the top/bottom limbs is how the bow is tillered.

[smj]

The bowyer will state what the brace height should be - but you may find that the sweet spot for the bow/arrow combination might be a bit different from what is suggested. By twisting or untwisting the string you can change the brace a bit to find the height that gives the least vibration and best arrow flight. Keep in mind that you may have to move the nock location as you change your string length to actually realize that best arrow flight! Also worth noting, as you shoot in a new string it will lengthen, or stretch! Not only will this drop your brace height, but it will also change where you nock, unless the stretch is equal to either side of your nock point! Hence, as you find that you have to add a few twists, make sure the nock is still where you want it to be!

Want more info? Just ask!

So, you have this guy?


Nice looking bow! How does it shoot? Give us a review, if you don't mind!

[trap4life]

smj- yep that is the bow. I cant really say how it shoots cuz I suck at shooting it that is why I was hoping something was wrong with the bow not me. I can stack arrows on top of each other with my bowtech, but with this thing I am getting so frustrated.I started out with cedar shafts. Then I realized that wasn't working ,so next I got some grizzly sticks (sitka), things got a little better but not much. I have been trying to bare shaft tune the arrows it worked to get my knock point right, but with the spine I can shoot 250 grain or all the way down to 167 with little difference. Out to about 14 yards I get about 3 out of 10 that go close to my 3 inch circle. But at 15 yards and above I have broken 2 of my 6 arrows. There is no consistancy at all. I have to try and find some real light inserts to try and go lighter with my field points the brass ones are to heavy I think.I am not consistant enough to just cut more of the shaft off untill I know it will help. But the 2 arrows I have broke, the arrow hit the target with the feather(flying knock left) cuz they were to far right so the tip missed but not the feathers. If I shoot the arrows with feathers on them I do manage to keep them on the target but with zero consistancy. I knew these bows were hard to shoot but I havent gotten any better since I picked it up for the first time. I just got a hand held bow scale to see my actual pounds of pull at my short draw and It is 48 pounds, do you think cutting my shafts more will help. I have cut them down to 28.5 so far but not sure it is changing much. I have about a 25.5 draw length. To me it seems like you need the arrow tuned correctly but even if they are under spined I would still get something consistant even if it was way off but my shooting is spuratic at best. Oh yea I started at 6.5 inches brace height all the way up to 7.5 and I cant notice much difference. Could the fact that I am shooting 3 under be the problem. It seems like I read on here that shouldn't be to much of a problem. Thanks for listening to me ramble on and on, hope I have made some sense out of my mess.

[smj]

Well, trap, sounds like we have some work ahead of us! I know how you are feeling, I shoot a Bowtech Pro 38 and use tennis balls at 60 yards for targets... My best day is 3 out of 3. (This is not a brag or a challenge!) The bow is a modern wonder! When I have not been shooting trad for a while, I can't hit anything at 20 yards until I go through my form and get used to it again. Shooting trad well is a commitment, and will probably not happen as fast as we'd all like. Compounds allows us as archers to really come up to speed fast - a stick and string does not.

You are right about getting the arrow to match the bow, but there may well be some other issues we need to address as well. Shooting a traditional bow, without all the sights and rests and fancy stuff is a challenge for sure. But these things do work, we just need to get it all going in the right direction for you.

What does your bow arm do when you release an arrow? Also, what happens to your release hand when you shoot an arrow? The bow hand should not jump around, not right or left, not up or down. It needs to stay steady! Your release hand should end up under your ear, some say at the back of the neck, I find under the ear works well. When you release the arrow, do not pluck the string! In other words, keep that anchor hand solid - it will pull back a bit on its own, but don't start to pull it back at release time and take the string with it. Release cleanly, smoothly, without any pluck. Most of the time, a pluck will see you ending up with the release hand away from your ear. Although I can tell you one can do this evil and still end up under the ear... What I have done is start to pull the release hand elbow back before I release the arrow. This is backwards so don't do it, if you are doing it, STOP! If the bow drops at release, you are probably holding all fingers to tightly on the bow. If this may be an issue, try holding and shooting the bow with only your thumb, pointer and middle fingers. Leave the other two finger off the bow, totally loose. The centerline of the belly of the bow should be right between the thumb and pointer finger when you grip the bow. Keep the remaining fingers griping lightly! If you are torquing the bow, this should help to eliminate that issue as well.

Last for this time, don't shoot over 10 yards. If you are shooting 3 fingers under, that is fine, you should be able to look just about right down the shaft. If not, consider changing your anchor point so that you can. A good group for starting out at 10 yards would be 10 arrows on a standard paper plate.

What do you mean by "I can shoot 250 grain or all the way down to 167 with little difference" ? I assume this is tip weight? Which, given the near center cut of the bow, the spine of the shaft, and the length of the arrow I believe that! Also given that the flight sounds a bit messed up yet, fine tuning points should really wait until we check out your form and see if we find any issue with that!

Also, at 48 pounds you will not want a very stiff shaft. You say you have some cedar arrows and some GrizzlyStik Sitka. It sounds like the Stika should work for you, it is rated from 40 to 55 pound draw weights - but with your short draw length these might still be to stiff for you. I always find a stiff arrow to bounce a bit left for me out of my bows. And fly really badly if I don't release them just exactly right. (This is why I started with release hand and bow hand.)

Take a run through the above, see if you find anything of worth! Then let me know how it goes and we'll push forward from there!

stevej

[trap4life]

Stevej, Well for starters thanks for the help. I was trying concentrate on my form and thought it was good untill I read your reply. My bow arm seems like it stays on target after shot . But the release hand elbow was definatly one of the problems. I cant believe how such little things can change so much. I have for the first time in 2 months of shooting every day seen some improvement, I am not robin hood yet but I can honestly say my arrows are all on the target and if they aren't I know why as soon as I release. I am not ready to break my bow over my knee no more at least. As far as my grip from what I have read the pressure should be on the palm of bow hand , but when I hold it more like my bowtech with a open grip,and I put pressure higher up on my hand it seems to help but after about 20 shots it starts to hurt my thumb. Is this normal or should I learn with pressure on the palm and not between thumb and index finger. I am down to 3 arrows now but after I broke the last of my unfletched arrows I came in and read your reply so I think after I order more arrows I will be able to make them last a little longer (hopefully), but I did learn one thing from breaking that last one. It is now 2 inches shorter and it flys better so I think I can make these shafts work after I get to be a better shot. My front of center on my arrows is about 16% so I have a feeling that is why it is so hard to shoot with no feathers (maybee). Just wondering what would you consider a good group at 20 yards, just wondering how far I have to go. I am going to stay at 10 yards for a few days now and see how it goes. I was wondering what is a good material for my rest the one I have is pretty worn out and it didnt seem like it lasted very long, I was concidering seal skin. Also my arows that are released correctly hit right on at 10 yards so I think I am close on my spine, I just tried my arrows from my bowtech and they definatly jump to the left so I think I am at least in the ball park with the grizzly sticks. Is it important to have my arrows cut close to my riser or is 3 inches sticking out not at full draw not a big deal. Well that should do it for now getting pretty late. And once again thank you so much for your help Dave

[smj]

Dave - Had to see if you'd had any luck... I am very pleased to hear things don't seem quite so bleak any more! It would be a shame to break the bow... It is a nice bow, and as fire wood I doubt you'd be able to boil water with it!

So far as grip goes, this is kind of a personal preference. Mine is more of a mid-grip pressure wise. I like to feel the bow snug into my hand, without having to put a big grip on it. Some like high hand, others low hand - I like the middle grip, with the thumb nice and relaxed. I find that the more body parts I can just relax the better my shooting is. I think it has to do with the fact that if I just relax my thumb, I don't have to worry about getting it to the right position each shot. And as you have noted, everything needs to be the same for every shot, every time, or the arrow goes somewhere else! If I try to shoot a relaxed thumb with a high grip, I end up taking the draw weight all on the thumb rather than the hand. I find this less consistent from shot to shot. Keep in mind that these bows do have a little kick to them. If you grind your thumb into the bow, not only might you torque it, I would imagine that it would not take to long to sore from getting knocked around a bit each shot...

So far as rest material goes - seal skin is a fine product for this! It is expensive when compared to other materials - but very nice. Maybe the best?? If you go with seal skin, make sure you have the fur pointing in the direction of arrow travel during the shot, not during the draw! A little contact cement (rubber based) works good to put it on with, "barge Cement" is recommended.

www.wildernessexchangeunlimited.com/product_detail.cfm?CatID=75&PID=1203

Bear hair works well, the fuzzy part of a velcro fastener also works just fine. Still, the seal skin probably one of, if not the, best of the bunch. I suggest making a paper model first, then cutting out the seal skin, making sure the hair is pointed right!

If the shorter arrow is flying best - shorten one more just to make sure it repeats. Then shorten a couple more. you can always shorten, you can not do much to lengthen... Well, it can be done but is a bit of a pain and you will never get the same flex again!

16% FOC should help rather than hurt unfletched arrow flight. I suspect something else is going on.

Let me know what else you want info on!

PS - Having some extra shaft sticking out is not always a bad thing... Make sure that you don't cut them to short - when you draw a broadhead back you really don't want it on your finger! Imagine a Silver Flame getting dragged up to or over your finger... Not good either way! Also, arrow length is a big part of the tune up we go through to get good flight. Length has an effect on spine, just like changing tip weight. If shorter shoots better, with the tips you were using, you might have been to soft a spine at the longer length...

[trap4life]

smj - well things are starting to improve slowly , but anything is way better than nothing. I am about to get some more arrows not sure if I should buy more grizzly sticks. I like the tappered shaft though. I think I need to cut all my arrows shorter to stiffen them up but I am going to wait a little longer and try and get more consistent before cuting them to short. I was wondering what you think about arrows I usually by the top of the line for my bowtech, but with the long bow I dont know if it is necessary to buy the expensive ones. I want to stay with a heavy shaft (10 gpi or more) ,with such a short arrow it is hard to keep the finished weight heavy enough for good penatration. Got any sugestions for shafts , I will be putting the feathers on myself 5 inch if that sounds right . I put 4.5 inch on my current arrows but I left them 1 inch high but they are real noisy so I will try longer feathers but maybee 5/8 or 1/2 inch high. One other question for now I thought about getting some kind of grip cover for my bow or will that ad more issues as far as a proper grip and release.I was just thinking it would releave some hand shock or vibration. Thanks again Dave

[smj]

Hi Dave -

Let's see, older questions first I guess...

For reference, when you get a new string for your bow, if it is of B-50 you will see a lot of stretch right off. For example, I just made a string, put it on the bow and took 12 rounds with it. When I'd strung the bow, my thumb was just under the string... After 12 shots, not so anymore -


I would put at least 100 rounds through it before considering it to be somewhat stable. For your bow, you can use the fast flight string, from what I read on it the bow should have come with fast flight. If you put a string on it, make sure it was fast flight. Fast flight will give you a faster shot, which for shorter draw lengths, this is a good thing! Also, I don't think you will see nearly the stretch with fast flight that you'd see with B-50, although expect some.

You ask about a reasonable group at 20 yards... OK. So I shot the new string, no nock point on the string yet, just eyeballing the arrow as it sits on the rest. I shot 12 rounds, 6 I worried about form and took care on where I nocked the arrow on the string, and 6 others that I let small form issues come in to play. For each shot, I kept the same aiming point and expected each shot to be in the same group. I don't remember which form issue produced which shot, but I do know that the 6 in the middle happened when I took care with my shots! The other 6, well, see for yourself -


The 6 that hit near center flew very well also. The others, some did and some did not fly well at all. These are all the same arrow, too. Same shaft, tips, the only difference is that some are 4 fletch and a few are 3 fletch. I like both, shield cut, 5 inch length, 0.5 inch height:


I don't see any difference at 20 to 30 yards so far as speed dropping off. The 4 fletch does seem to stabilize better - but if I do things right the fletching should not have much to do anyway. Where I really like having the 4 on there is with broadheads. I think they help drive the arrow better than 3. Plus, I can grab an arrow without having to look at it or feel for a knob to align it correctly. These are all 0.5 inch high at the trailing end of the fletch.

I always buy the best arrows I can afford, without going nuts of course! I have been shooting the Goldtip Traditional with a 145 grain tip. At my length, which is also the full length that they come in, I get right around 480 grains. I think that to get a heavy arrow and use your draw length - you might consider staying with a longer arrow and trying to tune things up a bit - whether form or tip weight or nock placement. Otherwise, you might be looking at the use of inserts, or salt, to put inside the arrow to add weight. Personally, I don't like doing such things! I prefer longer shafts of stiffer materials, with a heavier tip. Which sounds like what you are doing. For the short term, you might pick up a few Grizzly Sticks and cut them so you have something to shoot and improve your form with. Long term, we might want to pick a different arrow... You know, you might buy the next stiffness up for the Grizzly Sticks, and put that 250 grain tip on it and see how it shoots. Leave it longer than you are cutting the one you have. It will be more stiff, but the big weight tip and extra length might compensate and give you reasonable match. However, don't go out and buy a dozen shafts on my say-so!!! See if you can get just one or two at the most, try them full length for starters, it might be a bit soft, then nibble it down an inch or so at a time to get the stiffness that flies right. If it don't work, you are only out one arrow! Just a thought...