Greg Krause
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Post by Greg Krause on Jan 15, 2009 23:46:36 GMT -5
Not trying to raise yer hackles BT..LOL In the end it's comes down to individual preference anyhow. That's where Bruce and I leave it anyways, cuz if we don't one of us would take a hurtin' real bad!   Where's Greg stand on all this?  ?? Look forward to all this anyways! MAybe we'll all learn somethin'. I'm following along and getting a headache ;D I really don't get into the math or science of it. One reason is probably that I have never had to worry about any of this. i have a 29" draw and have been shooting over 70#'s since I was 16. I would have to edge toward a middle of the road approach. My Longbow is 49#'s, I have as of now settled on an arrow that weighs 8.7 grains per pound(430grains). I am planning on experimenting with heavier arrows this year, but that has more to do with point of aim than performance. This rig has killed a few pigs and a deer, all under 25yds(my max). 1 of the hogs was over 600#'s and I had a pass through on it. This seems more than effective for meduim sized game. when I get my 60# shrew I plan on edging towards 10gpp. My compund is and isn't middle of the road. It isn't because I shoot 5gpp, BUT that 5gpp still gives me a 400+ grain arrow and I get 316 fps, 89#KE and .560 momentum at the bow. so it's not a light arrow. Heck I have 280fps, 69#KE and .496 momentum at 100yds. I do know from playing around though that I can and will get higher KE and momentum with a heavier arrow. I will also lose speed and flat flight. For me I want the speed as long as I have enough juice to get the job done. For deer i want to be able to make quick shots at unknown and sometimes long ranges. I played with my bow and heavier arrows designing what I would consider a decent set up for Cape Buffalo. Here I NEED all the KE and momentum I can get. I'll have a range finder so speed takes a back seat to having the needed "juice". I set my bow to 87#'s and moved up in arrow weight 750grains seemed to be right around the point of negative returns. Meaning i had the highest KE possible with a very high momentum, before the arrow weighed so much that it was just too slow and KE dropped off. I had about 96#'s of KE if I remember correctly. I'm pretty sure it was 750grains at 240FPS, giving 96# KE and .798 momentum and 228FPS and 86#KE, .758momentum at 100yds I really beieve it is a balance of what you want and what you are willing to give up. If I was only going to shoot 20-30yds I would lean towards a heavier arrow, but I would never go past the point of negative returns. there is too much loss in KE/performance for any marginal gain in momentum at that point Just for reference the heavier arrow holds it's KE, Speed and Momentum better over the 100yd span.......but again what set up would you rather be shooting at a deer at a unknown range between 30 and 40yds? Which one for a standing Cape Buffalo? |
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Post by easternhunter on Jan 16, 2009 7:01:13 GMT -5
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Post by easternhunter on Jan 16, 2009 7:02:58 GMT -5
Not trying to raise yer hackles BT..LOL In the end it's comes down to individual preference anyhow. That's where Bruce and I leave it anyways, cuz if we don't one of us would take a hurtin' real bad! Where's Greg stand on all this? ?? Look forward to all this anyways! MAybe we'll all learn somethin'. I'm following along and getting a headache ;D I really don't get into the math or science of it. One reason is probably that I have never had to worry about any of this. i have a 29" draw and have been shooting over 70#'s since I was 16. I would have to edge toward a middle of the road approach. My Longbow is 49#'s, I have as of now settled on an arrow that weighs 8.7 grains per pound(430grains). I am planning on experimenting with heavier arrows this year, but that has more to do with point of aim than performance. This rig has killed a few pigs and a deer, all under 25yds(my max). 1 of the hogs was over 600#'s and I had a pass through on it. This seems more than effective for meduim sized game. when I get my 60# shrew I plan on edging towards 10gpp. My compund is and isn't middle of the road. It isn't because I shoot 5gpp, BUT that 5gpp still gives me a 400+ grain arrow and I get 316 fps, 89#KE and .560 momentum at the bow. so it's not a light arrow. Heck I have 280fps, 69#KE and .496 momentum at 100yds. I do know from playing around though that I can and will get higher KE and momentum with a heavier arrow. I will also lose speed and flat flight. For me I want the speed as long as I have enough juice to get the job done. For deer i want to be able to make quick shots at unknown and sometimes long ranges. I played with my bow and heavier arrows designing what I would consider a decent set up for Cape Buffalo. Here I NEED all the KE and momentum I can get. I'll have a range finder so speed takes a back seat to having the needed "juice". I set my bow to 87#'s and moved up in arrow weight 750grains seemed to be right around the point of negative returns. Meaning i had the highest KE possible with a very high momentum, before the arrow weighed so much that it was just too slow and KE dropped off. I had about 96#'s of KE if I remember correctly. I'm pretty sure it was 750grains at 240FPS, giving 96# KE and .798 momentum and 228FPS and 86#KE, .758momentum at 100yds I really beieve it is a balance of what you want and what you are willing to give up. If I was only going to shoot 20-30yds I would lean towards a heavier arrow, but I would never go past the point of negative returns. there is too much loss in KE/performance for any marginal gain in momentum at that point Just for reference the heavier arrow holds it's KE, Speed and Momentum better over the 100yd span.......but again what set up would you rather be shooting at a deer at a unknown range between 30 and 40yds? Which one for a standing Cape Buffalo? Greg, I thought you didn't play the numbers game??? ;D HEck when you can shoot 70# and 87# for buffalo, you shoot whatever you want!  |
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Post by easternhunter on Jan 16, 2009 7:11:32 GMT -5
Well, I wasn't trying to debate this issue before testing even started! I find it interesting on what parameters does the testing follow. What exactly are we looking for here? Is it a K.E. VERSUS Momentum showdown? or the effectiveness of the impact and penetration at downrange distances? As I said earlier, to me, I'm curious of what will be the K.E. of each setup at say 30yds. and the Momentum co-efficient at that yardage for each . Those are the figures I'd like to see. |
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Post by BT on Jan 17, 2009 1:31:00 GMT -5
I find it interesting on what parameters does the testing follow. What exactly are we looking for here? Is it a K.E. VERSUS Momentum showdown? or the effectiveness of the impact and penetration at downrange distances? As I said earlier, to me, I'm curious of what will be the K.E. of each setup at say 30yds. and the Momentum co-efficient at that yardage for each . Doegirl says that she is building on Ashby's theory and Ashby is unwavering....so....I guess that you certainly could say that it is a showdown since BT is going in a totally different direction  The difference is that BT does waver and builds each system to match the shooter and that shooters target animal. As to what this is really all about.... Speaking on a personal level...I am looking at effectiveness as being a total package of positives outweighing negatives being the end game. If you have a system that will drive through a barn door but you cant use it effectively...thats not a worthwhile system  If you have a system that you cant miss with but you also cant punch through a paper bag with it...you cant use that either Down range is a relative term (to me) which states that down range is stated as the practical distance that the shot is likely to occur as well as the bows ability to cast that projectile without loss of significant K.E./M.O.. Where range exceeds cast....M.O. becomes the desired objective of the system. I am building a system based on cast being matched to expectation....being 30- yards. I believe (based on the past two seasons threads) that both shooters are operating within the same parameters. Personally, I don't pay a whole lot of attention to these things until the target animal requires that I do. More important is how the numbers relate against resistance.What I mean by this is that the head used becomes the differential against the given energy in reserve when the contact area is the same. This is to say that if you have a head that requires A to penetrate and you provide B, then you are in trouble. However, if you have B and provide resistance in C then you are working with a reserve.....and therefore rendering A as being inconsequential. Both schools of thought provide for this.... but one theory states that all things are secondary to a constant while the other theory states that one thing is built upon the another. |
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Post by Doegirl on Jan 17, 2009 9:14:25 GMT -5
Honestly, I lean towards the BT theory . Why I chose to experiment with Ashby's this year is to find out, for myself, the pro's and con's of his system. There are plenty of dudes out there that think they are shooting a heavy arrow and suggest I do the same. But a 400grain arrow out of 70lb bow is a different animal than that same arrow from a 50lb bow. All they say is "go heavy". Even Ashby ranks certain things above arrow weight as being critical to penetration. Quite honestly, Ashby does come off as sort of a prick at times, but I'm interested in his experiments and data, not his personality. |
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Post by Doegirl on Jan 17, 2009 10:43:39 GMT -5
There's another reason for me going heavier. I want to shoot something really BIG at this years team hunt. Like a bison or bull elk, finances permitting. If not than at least a cow elk. I'm sure I'll have some volunteers to help take some of the meat off my hands |
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royden
Senior Board Member
Posts: 1,349
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Post by royden on Jan 17, 2009 11:47:50 GMT -5
something to keep in mind doegirl ... it is my contention that in the wild the big bulls die harder than the small bulls and cows ... they have more tenacity for life. I would assume that high-fenced elk would be the same, but ... maybe not - they don't have to "survive" like the wild brethern do.
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Post by Doegirl on Jan 17, 2009 13:31:07 GMT -5
something to keep in mind doegirl ... it is my contention that in the wild the big bulls die harder than the small bulls and cows ... they have more tenacity for life. I would assume that high-fenced elk would be the same, but ... maybe not - they don't have to "survive" like the wild brethern do. I agree with you, I don't mean to sound cavalier about bowhunting these magnificent animals. Believe me, if I have any doubt of my abilities or equipment, I will not carry forth.. It's not my intentions to show the world that I can cleanly kill a bull elk or bison with a 53# bow. I'd much rather use 60lbs. Many forget that an American Bison is every bit as big as a Cape Buffalo. More people die at Yellowstone from bison charges then bear attacks. They can easily out run a human being and jump fences. Bison ARE dangerous game. Elk might not be "dangerous", but deserve just as much respect. |
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Post by BT on Jan 17, 2009 17:27:42 GMT -5
But a 400grain arrow out of 70lb bow is a different animal than that same arrow from a 50lb bow. All they say is "go heavy". Even Ashby ranks certain things above arrow weight as being critical to penetration. You are right on point Doegirl Most people cant speak to the real value because they are shooting way over requirement. When your in that position, you can say whatever you want and are very likely to do just that. Without having to work within the minimums, you really are only guessing at the facts. I have set up a number of big game rigs in the 40 - 50# range and have seen some things that most would say is impossible  Now...with that said...I have not taken Ashby to the minimum and therefore, I am very interested in the turn out here ;D we are birds of a feather I think that when you have spent as much time at this as we have, you just start to get pompous and opinionated based on the fact that you have facts that most do not. I dont know....maybe we are just A**h*les by nature . |
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