The advantage of the crossbow

[shaman]

2chucks2 said:

Lastly, about the argument that the crossbow is more like a gun because it is shouldered and released. If that is the case, then all modern compounds with a pistol grip and using a trigger release are really just handguns. Chew on that for a while.

It would still argue that shooting any firearm is different biomechanically from shooting a recurve or compound. A handgun is more like a crossbow pistol than a recurve/compound.

It is not about the grip or trigger as an independent item.
It is about the unified platform in firearms that include a stock that provides for stabilization between forehand and shoulder (or not in the case of pistols), channels the projectile, and non-free floating trigger. These are consistent items between a firearm and a crossbow that are not present in a recurve/compound.

Recurve/Compounds have no architecture between the bow and the release/fingers other than the string. There is no method (unless using steady gear) to vertically stabilize the bow other than the shooters skill. The release is free floating, although attached to hand/wrist it is not attached to the same mechanism that is harnessing the bow itself (that mechanism being your other hand).

I don't agree with steady gear or arm lock devices.

[2chucks2]

One last point to make. I think the reason that the compound was poorly received was due to the marketing plan used by Mr. Allen himself. The below ad from 1971 states:

"Our survey of hunters experienced with recurves as well as Allen compounds, shows average recovery rates on big game hits of 84.1% with Allen compounds, or nearly three times that of conventional bows (remember this thing had 25% let off) Run distance was reduced from an average of 172.9 yards to 60.1 yards. That's about as efficient as rifles; maybe better. Shock is added to hemorrhage to bring game down before out of sight. Joint the conservation minded hunters using Allen compounds. You'll have nearly 200% better chance of recovering your game using the bow with 50% more speed and penetration."



The valid argument against the use of crossbows ended more than 30 years ago. It's time to stop living in the past. 11 states have already welcomed the crossbow into the regular archery season and 43 total state allow them to folks of a certain age or with disability so they are already accepted by the majority and that number is growing.

[shaman]

2chucks2 said:

The valid argument against the use of crossbows ended more than 30 years ago. It's time to stop living in the past. 11 states have already welcomed the crossbow into the regular archery season and 43 total state allow them to folks of a certain age or with disability so they are already accepted by the majority and that number is growing.

That Allens ad is terrible in more ways than one. Great find though.
It speaks to how misguided marketers can be sometimes.

Your argument leaves being a critical discussion of traits when you say the above, "valid arguments....".

My invalid arguments still seem to hold some sway, because Maine is one of those states that does not allow crossbows during archery season. And if Maine uptake on crossbow utilization is any indicator, able bodied folks don't want to shoot a crossbow unless it gives them more hunting weeks. This in the end speaks volumes to me personally.

As for following a trend;
If 11 states ratified Slavery for all, and 43 more allowed disabled folks to procure a slave due to inability to self care.... would that make it right? To some maybe, others perhaps not.

[2chucks2]

This is not an issue of right or wrong. to compare crossbows to slavery is a comment of desperation. The trend I brought to light is simply to show that as the years past, more and more states are welcoming this piece of archery equipment. Next year that number of states will have grown and the year after that..............and none of them are experiencing all the negatives or myths that anti crossbow folks are making claims about. As far as folks Looking to add extra hunting days. That's a no brainer. Just change the words to read able bodied folks don't want to "use a spear "unless it gives them more hunting weeks.

Take a look at Georgia.

Summary from Nick Nicholson/Georgia Senior Wildlife Biologist

It looks like Georgia has found a winner in crossbows...I received this information from the Senior Wildlife Biologist in Georgia..."I have just completed looking at Georgia's 2003-2004 hunter survey results. Because of the interest in crossbow hunting, we decided to take a closer look at crossbow harvest. I have included excerpts from the annual report below.

The 2003-2004 hunting season marked the second year that crossbows were legal for the majority of hunters in Georgia. Previously, only those hunters with certified disabilities were permitted to use crossbows.

The number of crossbow hunters and their harvest during 2003-2004 increased by 55.3% and 168.0% respectively over 2002-2003. To put these numbers more in perspective, crossbow hunters comprised 24.8% of archery hunters and 9.1% of all hunters for 2003-2004. Crossbow harvest comprised 21.8% of archery harvest but only 2.6% of the 2003-2004 total Georgia deer harvest.

Thirteen point five percent (13.5%) of crossbow hunters indicated they previously had used a crossbow under the handicap permit system. Thirty one point one percent (31.1%) of crossbow hunters (6,884) indicated they had not hunted with archery equipment prior to using a crossbow. To estimate the real impact crossbow hunters have on total harvest we must make several assumptions. The first is that new crossbow hunters who already participated in archery hunting did not increase their harvest by changing from compound/recurve to crossbow. The success rate for crossbows (.49 deer/hunter) is comparable to that of compound bows (.51 deer/hunter). Our survey indicates that 78.5% of archers use compounds and it is less likely that a traditional archer would switch to a crossbow.

There was a significant increase in the number of archery hunters for 2003-2004. The raw estimates give us about 9,300 additional archers. A large part of this increase can be attributed to the 31.1% of crossbow hunters (6,884) who indicated they were new to archery hunting.

Additionally, age structure data indicates an influx of older hunters into the crossbow hunter ranks. A portion of these individuals are likely retired archery hunters who were attracted back into archery hunting by the legalization of crossbows.

If we assume all additional archers hunted with crossbows and the .49 deer per hunter harvest rate for crossbows is additive for both of these groups, then 4,557 additional deer would be attributed to additional archery (crossbow) hunters. The 95% confidence interval for total harvest is plus or minus 7,818 deer. These data and assumptions suggest that any additional harvest attributed to the legalization of crossbows is not significant at a statewide level.

During 2002-2003 there was a small tendency for crossbow hunters to be older than the general hunter population. That trend continues for 2003-2004, particularly in age classes over fifty years old. Thirty four point six percent (34.6%) of the general hunter population is over 50 years old while forty three percent (43.0%) of crossbow hunters are over 50 years old. Older age groups show greater crossbow use for both seasons crossbows have been legal, however there also was an increase in crossbow selectivity this year by the 25-29 year age group. The average age for the general hunting population is 43.8 years. The average age for crossbow hunters is 45.3 years.

Crossbows have worked in every state they have been tried. None have ever changed the rules back or claimed that it was an error.

I will go so far as to say that the next two states to change their laws to include full use of crossbows will be Texas and Minn.

[shaman]

2chucks2 said:

Additionally, age structure data indicates an influx of older hunters into the crossbow hunter ranks. A portion of these individuals are likely retired archery hunters who were attracted back into archery hunting by the legalization of crossbows.

That is why I said able-bodied.
I have no issues with a draw-loc or crossbow being used by someone who has held an archery license but who can not longer pull the required min. poundage.

[BT]

Well since I have a bit of time on my hands and I am different in mindset than most on either side of the issue as to reasons....I want to get back in the pool

I remember that ad when it ran and hundreds more over a few years until the argument started fading away , mainly because the overwhelming evidence went against the people who were against the compound.
(cant discuss the crossbow until we cover the same demons that afflicted ourselves )

The reasoning against the past arguments (today) is hollow because the vast majority of bowhunters were not bowmen previous to this era.
Therefore there is a lack of information with which to draw upon to each side of the argument.
Even if todays bowhunter were to take the time to study the issue's of the past as it pertains to the anti-compound movement , they could still not grasp the emotion and mindset of that time because you had to live it to know it.
That may sound harsh but it really isn't when you consider anything in your own personal life.
You could explain the need to restrict logging but if you make your living off the land by harvesting lumber , these reasons are restrictive and senseless
Is it or not? ..... depends on where you stand on the issue
Is there a truth which proves the other theory incorrect?
Of course but can you change the mind of either person who stand on opposing sides of the question?
NO!
But why?
Because each side has facts that they believe and fact is going to out trump a fact
And this is where we were with the compound debate.

It's not that people came to their senses but rather the enemy majority became the majority
Did the majority know better?
NO
The fact of the matter is that the majority were only half informed compared to their opposition due to the fact that they had only experience one side of the argument.
I believe that the minority today were correct back then but what anyone else has done to this point in time has not effected me , so what do I care?
(I do care but I can go back to this point later)

Today we have the same issue because of the same problems.
The compound shooter has taken the place of the traditional archer in seeing anything other than a compound as bastard equipment ;D ;D
The Compound shooter(majority) now turns back on the traditionalist and shuns the idea of hunting like Fred Bear and Howard Hill , calling it harmful to the sport and an ineffective means of harvest
The irony is thick and blinds us!

Dont believe me?
I will go to the site of your choice and post a simple thread which questions the use of the longbow as an ethical tool
OH.... THE HORROR!
Suddenly you will see people posting who have never even posted before and the vast majority will condemn the longbow and spit at it and call it unethical.
(by the way....the people who will be calling it unethical will later on tell you that ethics are a personal thing when it comes to their broadheads and such )

The compound community has alot of strength and therefore can assault many small groups with the combined force of numbers devoid of insight..... in a blind attempt to save and take what few freedom that remain , back unto themselves.
This is not the users fault in my own opinion but is the work of brain washing over the last 30 years.
Who is responsible? ..... AMO!

AMO came about as a way to combine manufactures monies and influence (one in the same) to move agendas in the direction of profits.
Nobody was making a living building stick bows (by comparison to todays manufactures) but the compound made that promise and the manufactures jumped right on board.
(I dont blame them really)
Todays factory assault on the general public of archers is breath taking.
Which is to say that they are standing on our collective chests.
Now the big problem for the manufactures is that there are people with emotions attached to those dollars and that is a big nuisance for them......so please stop resisting! ;D
You will do what they tell you to do and you will do it when they tell your elected politicians to do it.
But.....it's not time yet
(I digress somewhat.....not much though)

What I am saying is that it is the manufactures (AMO) that started this fight and won the day and it has never been about what is right or wrong
And so.....the children of the corn follow the only master they have ever known and recite the mantra verbatim and pass it along from generation to generation.
This is why the debate continues.
In order for the debate to stop and one side win and one to lose , people must physically embrace the enemy in their minds in order to examine the facts within.

This is what the compound community did not do and have not had to do
The traditionalist did have to encounter this and did do this and I think that this is why you will find a more open demeanor toward the crossbow debate than will be found in the compound crowd.
It is my opinion that nobody other than the total art crowd who has and does fully indulge the full width and breathe of the archery experience should be considered to have a voice in the debate.

I do not have the vast experience with the crossbow with which to consider myself worthy to voice this opinion to a degree that might offer weight to the discussion....sadly.

Why? ..... because I do not yet need too

[2chucks2]

Well said.

[SPIKER]

My feelings on this subject stem from growing up in NY....and having hunted for over 30 years...damn I'm getting old...

I have had more run ins with knuckle head gun hunters....road hunters being the worst.....tresspassers second....and just plain unknowledgeable guys up from the city...hey I'm originally from Long Island...what you might call an "Uber Suburbanite"....who now lives in the country watching Nascar...but...... I'm getting off point......

Anyhow..the difference between the archery season, and gun season are like night and day....there's no one around....the weather is reasonable..the deer are on low alert..it's heaven!!!

Enter gun season.....chuckle heads everywhere....deer gone nocturnal...the only Savior is that most are wearing red....at least there is some safety that you won't get shot..although you wonder..

Now, the only thing that haunts my mind.....are that these same people will now enter the woods......in camo!!!....and I'm wearing....camo!!!

I would like to believe that there is no danger, but ...why chance it...keep them out of our woods....learn to shoot a bow....or take your chances during the rifle season with a crossbow...oh ...what's that?....you would rather use a rifle because you have a better chance to score?.....Well then...I guess you know how I feel then... ;D ;D ;D

[azslim]

I helped a guy get his antelope while I was in Wyoming that is a perfect example of the advantage of a crossbow. He has Parkinson's pretty bad and is blind in one eye. The Parkinson's makes him take about 4 steps to every one you or I would take, he can't pull a bow due to his shakes, let alone hold and aim one very long. The advantage the crossbow gave him is it enabled him to hunt during archery season where there isn't as many people driving around and blasting at everything. My cousin gave him permission to hunt the ranch and saw him stumbling around in the sagebrush. So Todd came and got me and we went out to where Jerry was, glassed up the goat he had arrowed about 1 hour earlier. Not a good shot but that is a different story. We spent about 2 hrs watching the goat, finding his bed in the sagebrush and getting Jerry in on him to finish him off. Then we took a couple pics, cleaned the goat, hauled it back to Jerry's jeep and loaded it up for him. Jerry was so thankful he came out the next morning, gave us a bottle of Crown and then we went and hunted coyotes for a while then put up the guns and drank the Crown. Was a good day.

That is where I see the advantage of a crossbow, when life has thrown you a curve and you can't hunt the way you used to.

[BT]

Thats a cool story