The advantage of the crossbow

[shaman]

I did not miss it, I just take a different view.

I take a biomechanical view, and you take a propellent view.

I don't see the method of propelling the projectile as the co-factor between like items.
I view the form and function of the like items as the association factor.

A draw-loc removes the requirement to draw while engaged, and to hold by musculature rather than mechanical means. But is does not radically change how the bow itself is shot physiologically (vertically held at arms length with a singular bow arm).
The draw-loc to me is an aid for bowhunters who are disabled or aged enough to require assistance and should be allowed in limited and specific circumstances.

Draw-Loc used by healthy and/or able individuals solely for the ability to remove the need to draw in the presence of game, and to remove the requirement of physical 'hold' of the draw until fire does not seem appropriate to me. But then, that is more of a 'where is the line on mechanical assistance of a bow" than whether a draw loc creates a crossbow (which it stil doesn't using biomechanical relationship as the factor).

[ruger7mmmag]

Just found this thread and find it very interesting and thought I would share my two cents. I'm a gun hunter. I grew up in central florida and hunting really wasn't an option though I always wanted to as my family is all from Ann Arbor, Michigan. My grandfather graduated from U of M's dental school, my uncle still hunts up in the UP every year with the same guys as the 3rd generation keeps that camp going and I was the first in my family to be born outside of Michigan. When I moved from Bradenton to Panama City, FL (I was 14) I started getting interested in hunting. I was already an excellent shot from my small game hunting growing up shooting pellet guns from as early as I can remember, stalking everything from bobcats, to squirrels to huge gators. Just no deer.

It wasn't till my senior year I started seriously deer hunting. Prior to my first season I spent countless HOURS and rounds shooting at ranges up to 500 yards, studying ballistics tables etc. I can gladly say I've NEVER lost a deer out of the 30 or so I've killed since that first season which was about 10 years ago.

I hunt for meat as my family will eat hog/venison all year long and won't buy any other meat at the store as long as it's in the house. So I just as rather shoot a doe as a buck unless he's a big one as I have a 10 point, 140 class buck on my wall. (220+ yards, no rangefinder, one shot, didn't take one step as the shot placement was perfectly through his spine where his neck meets his body). So I hunt for meat.

I hunt in FL (family has a lease there) and AL where I just moved and I can tell you why I switched to the Crossbow. For one, in FL, the laws are so screwed up in the panhandle the doe to buck ratio is so out of whack, you'll see TONS of does but hardly ever a buck bc they have no reason to ever leave the swamps or thickest stuff (you can't get into). With lease rules of only shooting 8point or better, the chance of harvesting meat outside of the one doe tag you get is almost impossible. The Doe Week is set a week before christmas and anyone with a job basically can't take advantage so it's useless. So I only hunt in FL now when I'm home visiting family to be with my dad, grandpa and brother which is what hunting is all about. So the chance of filling my freezer with the 5 deer I'll need to make the year is impossible.

Swith to Alabama. I hunt a mix of public land and when invited 2 or 3 times a year private land. On public land, there's only certain days you can hunt with a rifle and with a rifle you can only kill bucks. Granted you can kill any buck, but remember, I don't want to kill small bucks. Their doe week is also a week.

BUT, if you hunt with a BOW or Crossbow; at any point during the season, you can take either sex! This is important as most of my hunting will be on public land and in AL and I wanted to take advantage of the archery season to get more chances to fill the freezer.

Knowing this, my decision came down to between a crossbow or bow. Since I can't get home (FL) during bow season and xbows are legal in AL, I started doing my research.

Above all, I believe in killing game as quickly and humanely as possible. To me, that was the decision maker between the two.

My climber works better for a crossbow. On the occasion I'm in a shooting house I can use a crossbow and two I felt more comfortable with a crossbow bc it is so similar to my rifle. And to me, comfortable means a smaller chance of something going wrong and the deer paying the price. To me, that matters more than any of it.

I hunt with bowhunters and they've all shot the crossbow now and they agree, it's not "automatic" like they thought before shooting one as BT is right, you have to be a better judge of distance and they are heavy compared to bows. The truth is, if you kill anything with either, you've accomplished something. It's not like a crossbow is allowing you to shoot deer at 100 yards! You're still shooting at deer at the same ranges as you would with a compound bow.

To me the ends justifies the means and it either helps bolster our sport or it doesn't. If the crossbow means more people spend more time in the woods which means more of a chance our kids take it up, then it's good for us. If crossbows make it easier to get more people and kids into the woods, then we'd have less Columbines and that's good for everyone.

[Greg Krause]

Nice post it's really good to hear from guys who like to hunt with them. I can't say that I would hunt with them but I say that 'cause I believe that I have the advantage over the CB with my compound. Well, you are welcome here and there will be no bashing, unlike many of the archey websites. Make sure to take lots of pics this season.

[ruger7mmmag]

This was my first weekend using it in conjunction with my climber. Let me tell you, that was interesting. I have to say, the bow would have a huge advantage in my opinion when it comes to climber hunting. First, with the xbow, with the climber i have, i have to cock the xbow on the ground, tie a rope to the "foot piece" and then pull it up to me. Second, due to the horizontal nature of the thing, it restricts the angles you can shoot as my climber is forward facing (at the tree). Then when I pull it up, I slide the arrow in. The only way it can stay up there with me is if I hold it up vertically and lean the foot against the tree.

BUT, that's all not that bad in the scope of things and if i had seen a deer Saturday morn or aft, I would've been able to get one, but for some reason, no luck. We had goofy weather and I wonder if that kept them from moving much bc noone I talked to saw much in our area this Saturday.

I hope to post some pics here of that first kill. Driving me crazy as I want to get my first kill before gun season so I can justify to my wife it was absolutely a necessary investment!

[teambateau]

It is the same old conflict, Rifles v"s Shotguns, X-bows v's compounds, compounds v's recurves&longbows, and my sore spot, Real Muzzle loaders v's Inlines.
It is the old story of How can I get an EXTRA edge with something different.

[BT]

ruger7mmmag said:

to me, comfortable means a smaller chance of something going wrong and the deer paying the price. To me, that matters more than any of it.

I applaud this mind set and suggest that more should strive to share it.

To me the ends justifies the means and it either helps bolster our sport or it doesn't. If the crossbow means more people spend more time in the woods which means more of a chance our kids take it up, then it's good for us. If crossbows make it easier to get more people and kids into the woods, then we'd have less Columbines and that's good for everyone.

Well said

[clyde]

For those who think the cb belongs in firearms season, what about individuals such as my self. I am not handicapped. However, everytime I attempt to draw a normal bow, my shoulder pops loud enough to be heard accross a room. Not real good when a deer is in bow range. I was fortunate. A few years ago, during a physical, the doctor checked me for arthritis and during the discussion he asked me if I was a hunter. I said yes and that I was learning to shoot a compound, but had the noise problem above. You guessed it. The doctor was a bow hunter himself. He signed my crossbow permit the same day. The real value of the crossbow to me is the additional number of hunts I get each year as opposed to firearms. More days in the field is always better.

[BT]

That is a great Doctor
Glad you are fortunate enough to have the option

[shaman]

Most 'crossbow' users are gun folks who want a longer season.

clyde said:

The real value of the crossbow to me is the additional number of hunts I get each year as opposed to firearms. More days in the field is always better.

Here in Maine they opened up crossbows for disabled (all seasons) and Crossbow for anyone (firearm season). In order to use a crossbow during firearm season you had to take a special crossbow course to teach the limitations of range, etc. No able bodied people are taking the crossbow course and getting a crossbow license.

Archers who want to use a crossbow are still archers, and they are a very small numbers. Shooters who want to use a crossbow are not usually archers, they tend to be shooters who want to extend their season.

When they polled some of the folks taking their Hunters Safety courses if they were interested in crossbow add-on class to add the endorsement to their license the people asked if they would get more weeks. When they were told they could not get more weeks, they turned down the class.

When the people said no, they were asked why not.
The folks responded they had no interest in learning to shoot a crossbow unless they got more hunting time, and even if they were interested they felt they did not need a course since, to their perception, other than range shooting a crossbow was just like using a gun and they did not want to limit their range.
__________________

[2chucks2]

I really enjoy the crossbow debate. I have been involved in many on many diff forums and I must say that this one is by far the best, Most get pulled because they get angry and folks say mean and personal things. This one is taking the high road. I like that. Debate is a good thing but it is also important to know when it's going nowhere. It would appear that no minds are being changed here and that both sides are firm in their resolve that they are correct. It may be time to agree to disagree.

I do however notice that more and more devices are being made and sold that try to give the vertical bowhunter and advantage to make the quickest, most accurate and efficient kill and that is a great thing. Items like the steady rest and arm brace such as www.knightandhale.com/Steady-Ready-Shooting-Rest.htm and more importantly the pop up blind which negates the issue of getting away with the draw cycle at the time of the shot. I think that is why bowhunters moved into the trees, in an attempt to get away with the draw being detected. All of these things have made the difference between a modern Compound and a crossbow irrelevant and not worth wasting time on. On the flip side, if one wants to talk about the diff between a longbow and a modern crossbow, then there is a much larger separation and more valid points can be made but that is like comparing the old rug beaters/slapper and a modern vacuum. Sure both get a rug clean but do it in a very diff way.

I think the anti crossbow folks like to use the comparison of longbows/recurves to crossbows because it bolsters their argument and the folks who are pro crossbow like to compare the modern compound and the crossbows to show similarities and thus bolster their argument. As mean as it sounds (and this is coming from a guy who will be hitting the woods with a longbow) I think the longbow and recurve need to be removed from the equation since they are becoming a nich'e or novelty weapon used by people who like to do thing the hard way. We are surely not the mainstream any more. To use the longbow in the crossbow debate is not really relevant any more.

This battle was waged 35 years ago when the modern compound was just starting to gain popularity. Many rules and laws were passed about their use and that was with the new fangled bows having a whopping 20% let off. Can you imagine how they would have been received if they looked like today's bows and with 85% let off? I think this magazine article from 1972 says a lot.



Lastly, about the argument that the crossbow is more like a gun because it is shouldered and released. If that is the case, then all modern compounds with a pistol grip and using a trigger release are really just handguns. Chew on that for a while.