Sad Story

[Raven]

Sorry to hear this i am lost for words .
My condolences go out to his family and friends and the shooter....

[azslim]

A terrible tragedy. I helped a guy and his wife on elk the last few days, Paul & Kelly. About 10 years ago Paul was shot just over the belt buckle with a .300wm by a 16 year old kid from Utah. They didn't even come over after the shot. If Paul hadn't been an EMT and knowledgable about helo pads and country he wouldn't have made it. As it was he walked 1/2 mile to his truck, drove to phone service and called in chopper for himself. This was on the White Mtn Apache Rez and they didn't even follow up. It was Paul's friends that tracked down the shooter, not a lot of tags in that area so it wasn't hard.

I try to do my part to prevent tragedies like this from happening, I teach Hunter Ed and unforunately have a couple of personal examples to share with the kids, make my hunters be safe when I am guiding and stop and help out newbies when the need arises. There are a lot of people in the woods that don't have a clue, and it is up to us safe hunters to spread the message and correct mistakes. I have walked into a couple of camps and handed out a butt chewing to guys I have seen checking me out in their scopes. Because I know if they are dumb enough to use a scope as binoculars they probably had a round in the chamber.

[SPIKER]

azslim said:

A terrible tragedy. I helped a guy and his wife on elk the last few days, Paul & Kelly. About 10 years ago Paul was shot just over the belt buckle with a .300wm by a 16 year old kid from Utah. They didn't even come over after the shot. If Paul hadn't been an EMT and knowledgable about helo pads and country he wouldn't have made it. As it was he walked 1/2 mile to his truck, drove to phone service and called in chopper for himself. This was on the White Mtn Apache Rez and they didn't even follow up. It was Paul's friends that tracked down the shooter, not a lot of tags in that area so it wasn't hard.

I try to do my part to prevent tragedies like this from happening, I teach Hunter Ed and unforunately have a couple of personal examples to share with the kids, make my hunters be safe when I am guiding and stop and help out newbies when the need arises. There are a lot of people in the woods that don't have a clue, and it is up to us safe hunters to spread the message and correct mistakes. I have walked into a couple of camps and handed out a butt chewing to guys I have seen checking me out in their scopes. Because I know if they are dumb enough to use a scope as binoculars they probably had a round in the chamber.

How does this make you feel about online hunter's ed?

[azslim]

I am not for it, never was, but our GFD is after numbers not quality right now. But since the students do have to attend a field day and walk-thru where we place them in shoot/don't shoot scenarios some of us still try to get out the safety message, especially to the kids. And we can fail them depending on their actions and attitude and make them take the course again. But this is only for the kids, age 16 and up HE is not mandatory.

[SPIKER]

Think about it....you have a gun with a scope...or even without a scope....you hear a noise...see bushes moving...you shoot.

At that moment you need to have your gun taken away, and possibly yourself put away....This guy needs to do some time...the hell with being sorry for that loser....he shot at bushes moving and noise....I've been hunting for 30 years...since I was 12...and that is BS!

[royden]

aye it is BS - but ....

I agree that people need to think and many need to retake hunter ed. ( I also taught a number of years - but I'm more a 1/1 kind not a class room/1 type ... my hat is off to azlim)

Now be real honest ... have you EVER made a mistake? Someone could have been killed by your mistake be it while driving, hiking, using a nail gun, or hunting. This guy has to live with the repercusions of his mistake the rest of his life. Myself I would rather die than be in his position.

It's not that I don't think he needs punishing cause he does - he should be thrown in jail for manslaughter (and I'm sure he will). Won't do a thing for the family except perhaps a bit of closure.

Bottom line is we all have to realize the thin line we live on and take care when we pull the trigger - some of the shoot/no shot scenario's have depicted this well when you just can't quite see beyond the target (that's a no brainer/ no shot period.) But at the moment of truth many will take the chance and shoot. My parents almost shot a fisherman years ago walking down a closed railroad grade. Dude was wearing brown coverall's during rifle season in an area full of deer but no elk. At the time does and buck's were legal so if it was brown it was legal to shoot. My parent's dropped down onto the old tracks and began following them. As they neared a curve a pair of deer tracks came up on the track and headed the same direction. It was snowing and the tracks were fresh. They went around the curve and there was the deer a 150 yards in front of them. Tracks led right to the brown body - they could see the tracks. they debated about a texas heart shot (this was early 70's and they had no scopes, were poor and needed meat badly) but decided to pass untill a better shot presented itself. Figured in the snow the deer wouldn't look back so they would just follow. 100 yards down the track the deer jumped off and people tracks soon came up. That's when they realized they were following a fisherman.

I would give that fisherman a 75% chance of survival these days. Most people would pass waiting for horns, but when tired, hungry in a snow storm and needing meat many would take the shot.

So .... this dude shouldn't have shot; should be thrown in jail and I would rather die myself than to be in his shoes.

[SPIKER]

I agree on all points Royden..

The fact that your parents didn't shoot, and the way you were brought up, are a testament to the fact that people have to be intelligent, and trained in the ways of hunting.

I see your point about accidents....but hiking, and other activities that are borderline dangerous, or just crazy from the get go (like jumping off bridges into shallow creeks), while having inherent dangers do not present the immanent danger to others as a person with a weapon, who's sole intention is the taking of a life(Harvesting Game ).

That person needs to be well trained, whether by parental supervision, or state sponsored education(Hunters Ed), but probably both.

These days suburban hunting is more common, and people are in closer proximity to one another. The idea that the state is losing money, so they need to institute online courses is ridiculous. It's a viscous circle...more lesser trained hunters could well equal more fatalities during hunting season, which could then cause hunting to be seasons to be shortened, or even abolished in areas where there is too much sprawl.

The guy who was shot was wearing orange. I know that I can spot an orange hat a looong way off...I've been seeing them all my life...my point is that if the shooter didn't see the orange (And I believe that it was more than just the guys hat), then he did not see anything except movement, or hear a noise. Do I agree that I don't want to be the shooter...damn right..just like I wouldn't want to be the drunk driver that just crashed through someones house last night near me....Thing is that I won't ever be, because I don't drink and drive.

I only wish that more people would take the time to refresh themselves with hunter's ed. I did three years ago, I went to the cooperative extension, and even paid the 15 bucks, even though I've been hunting all my life.

Side notes: The guy could have been hit by a ricochet, or a bullet that just made its way through the woods after a miss, or passthrough....which would qualify as an accident...or I could drive through someones house after losing control on an icy surface, or being cut off by another driver. ...

[lockmaster]

There are so MANY reasons why anyone who hunts should take a hunters safety course and should not be allowed to hunt until they do. I even suggest it to hunters who have many years experience....and I have taken two in the past 20 years even though I have been hunting for over 51 years.

In the middle of it ALL, there has to be a requirement for good old "common sense". A guy who goes into the woods wearing "brown" in rifle season even if he is just hiking is showing a COMPLETE lack of common sense, but anyone carrying a gun in those woods needs the same common sense. A hunter in the woods carrying a "high powered rifle" and carrying ALL the responsibility that goes with that needs MUCH MORE than he /she can even GET in a hunter safety course.

My friend who was killed about 15 years ago was shot by a guy carrying a Scoped .270, who CLAIMED that at 237 steps, he looked through his scope (which I PERSONALLY saw set on 5X) and shot my friend who was 6' 2" and weighed about 280 when the guy MISTOOK him for a turkey because my friend was wearing a "plaid" shirt. That guy was "fined" $10,000 and lost his license for 5 YEARS!!! NO jail time AT ALL

If someone gets shot, it is STILL the SOLE responsibility of the "shooter" no matter what for not positively "identifying" his target, or for shooting where he did not MAKE SURE the background was a safe place for his bullet to enter!!! Even if a guy "trips" and so called "accidentally" kills someone, IT'S HIS/HER fault for not keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction. IMO, there is no such thing as a hunting "ACCIDENT".

Even if you lean your loaded gun against a tree and the wind blows it down and it goes off and kills or injures somenoe, IT'S YOU FAULT for being careless. IF you allow ANY weapon to be placed, held or discharged in a manner that causes injury or death..IT'S YOUR FAULT...even if it's you weapon and someone hurt's or kills themself or someone else by knocking it over mishandles it. If it's YOUR weapon, then YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE,whether in YOUR hands or someone elses!!

I have not seen ONE INSTANCE where someone getting severely hurt or killed in hunting season where it was an "ACCIDENT". EVERY SINGLE ONE is just pure stupidity, lack of common sense and carelessness!!! ANYONE who show a lack or who is not ready, willing and able to make SURE he is well qualified to carry a gun in the woods should not be allowed to...whether it's John or Jane Doe, or our kids or whoever!!!

Hunting is a great sport and has been for centuries. Target shooting and "plinking" is fun and it's a GREAT way to feed our families. HOWEVER....the responsibility of being "in control" of a gun is not a "game" that can be participated in "half' $$ed" when other peoples lives are on the line...or you own life either!!

I asked a guy in Viet Nam one time...an OLD TIMER Sergeant Major if he was worried about there maybe being a bullet there with his name on it. He said "No, what bothers me the most is the one that has 'to whom it may concern".

A LOT of hunters don't realize the damage and the injury that can be caused by a "stray" bullet...and there are MANY who are injured every year by those. We HAVE to not only TRAIN hunters in safety, but we have to INSIST that they use common sense in the woods. Some just don't have common sense no matter what!

Every year, I pray that it will be a safe season and that there will be no idiotic happenings that takes the life of another person, or cripples them for life...but it seems every year something MORE stupid than the year before happens.

To me, if a hunter kills another, then he SHOULD have to live with it and be tormented by it for the rest of his days. He should do time and he should be treated like ANY OTHER FELON and NEVER be allowed to own or carry a gun again for the rest of his life. I have NO sympathy for ANYONE who enters our woods or fields with a gun and kills someone! It's TOTAL lack of common sense, recklessness, and stupidity in it's strongest form!!

I have not seen ANY game animal in my life...whether in person or on the screen that is worth a "hunter's life"....or the life of a person sitting in their OWN house where the stray bullet intrudes his home and takes his life.

If it's a "WEAPON" and it can kill, then ANYONE who picks it up must also pick up and carry all the responsibility that goes with it!!!

NOW.....DON"T GET ME STARTED!!!

[SPIKER]

Here, here! Excellent speech Lockmaster!

I was brought up shooting firearms, and learned the basics of safety at a young age. I think...no...I know... that I had taken such rigorous training in safety for granted when I hooked up with some childhood friends who had gotten in to hunting while I was out on tour. I couldn't believe what these guys were doing...walking single file, muzzles pointed forward...having to duck out of the way of a swinging muzzle as somebody turned to face me....loaded weapons everywhere, even at lunch.

The one thing that I was always taught was never to receive a firearm with the breach closed....that bolt had better be open, or lever unlocked..etc.

I really should just let this be because it's making my blood boil at the stupidity that has ruined so many lives. I hope that that 16 year old can still enjoy the pleasure of hunting, without being constantly reminded of the tragedy that he witnessed due to a careless hunter.

This is why I love bowhunting..for some reason the level of maturity, and responsibility, as well as intelligence, seem to prevail in this arena. And I am proud to be a bowhunter, and part of the bowhunting community..that's my .02 on this...I'm bowing out..