Kinetic energy and momentum A good read

[BT]

That'll teach you to leave your work unattended

[stilllearning]

So if I am reading all this correctly the only reason to go with the faster flatter arrow is just that. It is faster so your shot distance with one pin is farther. But beyound that point of being flat and then it starts to drop....... Which is better? Is there enough of a difference to say either way?
I am having a hard time with this one and always have. Eastern and I have beat this one to death and I think we should send this one off to Mythbusters to try and come up with and answer to this question. Or is this all as important as the age old question of which came first the chicken or the egg?

I like the idea that BT has put in my head of the lighter faster arrow as it has put one pin out to about 25 yards at a very flat trajectory but at 30 yards it is still good. Again is this one of those it doesn't matter just go with what works for you, shoot within your known self implement shot distance, and practice putting it in the boiler room on all shots?

[Greg Krause]

For deer IMO, heavy vs light is not really relavent. faster is nice(especially with no range finder) and heavy will hit a little harder. deer are thin skinned animals put the arrow in the chest and it won't make a difference, i believe faster/flatter helps you put it there easier because of the gained flat flight. you will start to notice a differnce in penetration the farther you go past the arrows apex. momentum will reign supreme at longer ranges. But, how far are you shooting? 50+ yds.........most likely not. If you are not borderline KE than even at those ranges a light arrow will do the job well.

Heck, split the difference. shoot 6gpp, not overly light or overly heavy. Best of both worlds.

[Doegirl]

I don't even pay attention to the issue of momentum. If it weren't for Dr. Ed Ashby, no would be talking about it, either. On other forums people practically scream at me for not using arrows that weigh in at least 400grains. As if that extra weight would help me plow through a scapula. B.S. I don't care if my arrows weigh 800 grain, if I hit a shoulder I will lose that deer, period.
IMO, the best way for me to maximize penetration is to use a broadhead that offers the least amount of resistance when it strikes the target. Next to a properly tuned setup and straight flying arrows, broadhead selection means everything.

[Greg Krause]

trilby69 said:

I don't even pay attention to the issue of momentum. If it weren't for Dr. Ed Ashby, no would be talking about it, either. On other forums people practically scream at me for not using arrows that weigh in at least 400grains. As if that extra weight would help me plow through a scapula. B.S. I don't care if my arrows weigh 800 grain, if I hit a shoulder I will lose that deer, period.
IMO, the best way for me to maximize penetration is to use a broadhead that offers the least amount of resistance when it strikes the target. Next to a properly tuned setup and straight flying arrows, broadhead selection means everything.

I like your thinking! There is something to be said about momentum, but until i go on my cape buffalo hunt(hey, I can dream) i'm not worried about it.

I shoot about 8gpp on my trad gear, cause that is what the min is for my bow. I have been told it will not work because it isn't heavy enough............tell that to the 600# pig that i shot through with my 49# long bow at 17yds.
Guess what it wouldn't matter if the arrows was 800grains, if I hit the shoulder I would have been screwed

[stilllearning]

Thanks guys for the responses. I realy feal comfortable with the set up that BT helped me get when I was down because of the flat flight in my shooting range. I will never go over 40 yards as I see it and don't even want to shoot 40 yards. 30 is better for me and maybe with more practice 40 will come but for now all I good.

[BT]

stilllearning said:

So if I am reading all this correctly the only reason to go with the faster flatter arrow is just that. It is faster so your shot distance with one pin is farther. But beyond that point of being flat and then it starts to drop....... Which is better?

I have found in testing that in order for the momentum built shaft to have real advantage you have to be 5 yards past the point of flat flight.
On your bow (now that it is tuned ) this means that you would do better with the heavier shaft at 32 yards in relation to penetration but it will be fractionally better.
That fractional change will increase proportionately as distance is increased beyond that 32 yards.
Now here is the rub ..... in order to be ready to take advantage of that fractional gain , you will have to give up 5-6 yards of trajectory
Is that worth another 1" of penetration?

Is there enough of a difference to say either way?

Yes.
But....it is only going to be evidenced as a fractional change.
It will give you enough of a change to win an online argument but as to killing a deer.....it would be a 1 in 10,000 shot IMO as to that 1" being the diffrence between a kill and a wound.

I think we should send this one off to Mythbusters to try and come up with and answer to this question.

This has been done to death ..... I wanna see a car used as a submarine!....leave them alone!....they dont have time to do both! ;D

Here is the bottom line and you are my proof of that bottom line

Remember how we got that X-tra 5-6 yards out of your bow the day before you shot that deer?
Remember me asking you how far that shot was?.
I asked because I knew the distance and I knew that it was 25 yards.
You centered the heart and that heart was 3" above the outside line of the chest.

You said....20 yards and you shot it with the first pin.
If it had of been the old set up , you would have missed that deer clean
That's the real deal.....the trajectory gained you a deer while the momentum would have gotten you a patch of ground

Another thing....remember the spitfire you hit that deer with?
That's a 1 1/4" expandable ....supposedly (according to the majority ) needing a minimum of 50# K.E.
You were shooting 38# and blew through with only 3" of arrow remaining inside the chest cavity

Does it seem to you that the light , flat bow hurt you?

[BT]

trilby69 said:

On other forums people practically scream at me for not using arrows that weigh in at least 400grains. As if that extra weight would help me plow through a scapula. B.S. I don't care if my arrows weigh 800 grain, if I hit a shoulder I will lose that deer, period.
IMO, the best way for me to maximize penetration is to use a broadhead that offers the least amount of resistance when it strikes the target. Next to a properly tuned setup and straight flying arrows, broadhead selection means everything.

It's easy for me to say that your right.... since I agree with you ;D ;D
Your on point with the fact that people like to echo those who have done the math because then it sounds as if they themselves have done the math

I will agree that there is a point of diminishing returns as it relates to the gain of flat flight and loss of arrow wight reduced to gain that flight.
But...
The modern compound (last 5 years) has a far harder time of reaching that point of no return.
By contrast....the stick bow can attach a large amount of weight gain while remaining unaffected as to flat flight.
In such cases , the heavier arrow rules the day as it has accomplished both flight and momentum.
The reason for this is due to the stroke of the stick bow which is much better than a compound ***although it stores less energy.
This is the reason that stick bows require a heavier spine and it is the reason that stick bows can hold a comparative constant while attached weight is varied greatly.

[Doegirl]

admin said:

trilby69 said:

On other forums people practically scream at me for not using arrows that weigh in at least 400grains. As if that extra weight would help me plow through a scapula. B.S. I don't care if my arrows weigh 800 grain, if I hit a shoulder I will lose that deer, period.
IMO, the best way for me to maximize penetration is to use a broadhead that offers the least amount of resistance when it strikes the target. Next to a properly tuned setup and straight flying arrows, broadhead selection means everything.

It's easy for me to say that your right.... since I agree with you ;D ;D
Your on point with the fact that people like to echo those who have done the math because then it sounds as if they themselves have done the math

I will agree that there is a point of diminishing returns as it relates to the gain of flat flight and loss of arrow wight reduced to gain that flight.
But...
The modern compound (last 5 years) has a far harder time of reaching that point of no return.
By contrast....the stick bow can attach a large amount of weight gain while remaining unaffected as to flat flight.
In such cases , the heavier arrow rules the day as it has accomplished both flight and momentum.
The reason for this is due to the stroke of the stick bow which is much better than a compound ***although it stores less energy.
This is the reason that stick bows require a heavier spine and it is the reason that stick bows can hold a comparative constant while attached weight is varied greatly.

And that's the issue I have with Dr. Ashby. He's testing with 90# longbows. As you so well put it, stickbows are different animals
I'm not trying to discredit the man, he's put an aweful lot of time, work, and $$$ in his study. But saying what will be the best for a 90# longbow will also be optimal for a 50# Bowtech is silly.

[BT]

;D.....we are on the same page

Ashby is a very insightful man but insight is a byproduct of knowledge and if you are not well rounded.....
Ashby and I have been on opposite sides of the coin on some points.
( Particularly as to what we have both claimed pertaining to the application of applied force. )
Over the last year I am told he has amended his point of view to include my positions as potential fact.
;D......hey!.....I'll take that!
To me....this is a true honor.
To have been correct and in having had my technical positions upheld (even if only in theory at this point in time) by someone who has more time in the field than myself ......it is comforting to say the least