Penetration issues

[BT]

O.K. .... the trad gang offered good insight but no solutions since insight didn't apply

Here is the deal....I have never had good penetration....ever

Lets get the obvious out of the way....

#1: The arrows are tracking straight in a non-directional target
butt from 5 to 20 yards and beyond.
**Same with bare shafts.
#2: Shaft weight is over 7 grains per. pound in any bow I have
shot.
#3: draw is 28 to 27" depending on the bow.
Weight is never under 50#
#4: best penetration to date is 12" without pass through when centering a rib on entry with a single blade head.
#5: Worst penetration was 6" without hitting bone on a hog.
#6: One pass through (total while in flight) in total for every
deer ever shot including lambs within distances of 10 yards
or less.
___________

O.K. ... lets hear idea's

[smj]

OK. A 50 pound bow is typically rated at 28 inches. If you are drawing 27, you are shooting at less than 50 pounds. Maybe 48ish??? Less for an older bow? That hurts you. Your arrow at 7 grains/pound draw is 350 grains. Light. That hurts you. A 27 inch draw length hurts you as well. Look at the force curve - the available energy is that which is stored under the curve, right, so a shorter draw length will leave more peak potential untapped, never having the opportunity to get to the arrow. Also, which broadheads? Aluminum, wood, or carbon arrows? Shooting recurves or longbows? How much over 350 grains are your arrows and for which bow and any idea of arrow speeds and if so for which setup? I think the right thing to do is to take one setup and do the analysis. Then we might be able to draw a correlation to the other setups!

For your setup, 12 inches after passing through the middle of a rib seems like it is not that bad... My old Jennings compound shot a 650 grain arrow at about 210 fps. (My pal Jim makes hi-tech black Hoyt glass laminated longbows that will do this.) This gave me somewhere around 63 foot pounds. The shaft was a 2317 aluminum, with a 4 blade muzzy head. The arrow went in the bull elk through the middle of a rib on the near side, and went about 5 inches out the other side - passing between the ribs on the far side. Had I hit another rib square, I doubt the arrow would have passed through the far skin. I understand that you are not shooting a compound here... I mention this just for comparison of performance. I assume you have a cut on impact head, single blade, a light arrow, and a lot less energy to start with. You have a shorter draw and under 50 pounds to work with! A 400 grain arrow at 160 fps gives us almost 23 foot pounds... Again, I mention this simply to remind folks why archery is called a primitive sport!!! Compare the above to what skip is shooting! Skip could probably tie a brick on the front of one of his arrows and still take a deer with a marginal hit, and get a pass through!
Obviously, the trad stuff works! Otherwise we'd have never given up the spear or the atlatle... And you certainly taken animals... So -

Can we take one rig and pick it apart?

[BT]

60# Browning recurve 26 1/2" - 158fps
27 1/2" XX75 477 grains total.
150 grain Silver Flame Broadhead

This bow has only had the opportunity to make 4 kills.
No passthroughs on any kill from 15 - 30 yards.
Average shot distance for all kills is estimated to be 20 yards.

[BT]

Second bow...

Mamba 50# drawn to 27"
355 grain GT XT
100 gr. Stinger single blade
156fps

Over 6 wounds ( estimated 50% wound ratio with this bow)
Shots are 15 yard average in my estimation.

[easternhunter]

admin said:

Second bow...

Mamba 50# drawn to 27"
355 grain GT XT
100 gr. Stinger single blade
156fps

Over 6 wounds ( estimated 50% wound ratio with this bow)
Shots are 15 yard average in my estimation.

Drawn 27" only gives ya about 47# - 455 -500 gr.arrow wt. approx.
We all know pigs are tough skinned and that sheild around the shoulders makes it worse! Slower speed and power require heavier arrows right? maybe upwards of 550-600gr. Also, I wonder if that's part of the reason your trad bows are blowing up???
Rather than worry about flat flight, momentum seems the logical course of action. IMHO for what THAT'S worth....
SMJ? am I right on this???

[BT]

easternhunter said:

admin said:

Second bow...

Mamba 50# drawn to 27"
355 grain GT XT
100 gr. Stinger single blade
156fps

Over 6 wounds ( estimated 50% wound ratio with this bow)
Shots are 15 yard average in my estimation.

Drawn 27" only gives ya about 47# - 455 -500 gr.arrow wt. approx.
We all know pigs are tough skinned and that shield around the shoulders makes it worse! Slower speed and power require heavier arrows right? maybe upwards of 550-600gr. Also, I wonder if that's part of the reason your trad bows are blowing up???
Rather than worry about flat flight, momentum seems the logical course of action. IMHO for what THAT'S worth....
SMJ? am I right on this???

You cant get flat flight with this bow.
I dont concern myself with flat flight out of traditional bows....lost cause IMO.
The weight is what it is because of the arrow matching the bow.
There is little to nothing I could do to make an effective change.

This wasn't the pig bow .... the 60# was the pig bow
The Mamba was a deer bow.

[voodoofire1]

BT, I'm wondering what kinda arrows your shooting, also seems to me that those speeds are on the low side for recurves, I've got a customers flawless Howatt black mamba sitting right next to me that I'm applying some snakeskins to, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts that it will shoot a 540 gr. arrow at more that 160fps, and it's 53@28, it really shoots with authority..........I did some testing this summer with my hunting setup- 62", 76@30 and shoots my 540 gr. footed axis arrows anywhere between 203-208 fps. tried different heads, 2,3,and 4 blade, weights, even filled one with salt for 800gr. tried different arrows too, cx heritage ,GT, blackhawk vapors, and my footed axis, all these setups were tuned for my bow at my draw length prior to my informal testing, what I found amazed me.... my footed axis 340's with a 125gr. removable 3 blade sabre-titanium broadhead from wal-****, out penetrated everything else , even the 800gr.arrow with a 2 blade head, by at least 3" in new unshot targets of which I had many, and yes they were made from the same material, same density... so does this help you at all... well no, but what it told me is that every bow has a sweet spot set-up that it likes, just like guns,...............Steve

BT did some checking, and this is why your #'s seem low to me, this is a 58" longbow, 37@27, but at my draw of 30" it registers exactly 47#'s this number (191)was for a 10 shot average, shot at my draw of 30" with a 436 gr. arrow, but at 27", shooting the same arrow it averaged 158...

[BT]

Thanks alot voodoo!
Unfortunately....the 158 stands on the 50# mamba and that's with a 35/50 GTXT shaft and 100gr. filed point.
The 60# is getting the same ball park with the 2314 shafts and 150gr. heads @ 27"
The chrono is matching what other chrono's have speced at so I have a comparison to confirm.
I am short drawing at times but with the Mamba at 50# I am generally sinking right in at 28" when target shooting.

It's me guy....that's just my luck ;D

[arwin]

I always try to go with 10gpi per pound of draw weight and shoot a heavy head, 145 grains+. I'd say I get pass throughs 75% of the time.

[BT]

arwin said:

I always try to go with 10gpi per pound of draw weight and shoot a heavy head, 145 grains+. I'd say I get pass throughs 75% of the time.

This last go around has me at 9gpp with a 150gr. head....no help
I am not saying that I cant get a pass through....just not when I am hitting any bone.

Skipmaster shot the latest beast and while watching for it , neither of us were able to pick up any flight issues

Basically.....it's just the way it is