Crossbow controversy...

[Cossack]

It has become increasingly apparent that most of those who are against crossbow use are so because they will become part of "their" season. 'Let em hunt with the rifle guys but keep them out of my woods when I'm hunting with a (real) bow. That's both selfish and shortsighted. Crossbows are much less like rifles than they are like bows. Compound bows are less like recurve bows than like rifles. (365+ fps, 99% let off, trigger, sights, even dial a range gadgets) I've hunted deer with all types of bows, shotgun handguns, muzzleloader and rifles. At 70 I can no longer pull a vert, so I've resorted to crossbows (only). It's an absolute hoot, and much harder than you 'verters' think(Try it sometime.) I count on one relatively close (under 30 yards) and loud shot, after lifting a 9+ lb bow in place. There are no re-do's; both the noise and the re-cocking make sure of that.
If my kind threaten your hunting that's really sad and unfortunate.
I've earned my right to hunt with service to my country if not my age alone. What I hunt with, by necessity or need, should make no difference to what you hunt with. Relegating my choice of weapon to a shorter, colder season (No MINNESOTA) isn't acceptable to me. Y'all get to hunt during the warm months here, why should I not?
As for shortsighted, statistics show that for every 3 hunters that quit hunting, only one replacement starts. Unless with quit bickering and stick together the antis ( who are increasingly vocal and well financed) will soon win the votes to ensure that NO ONE hunts. Live and let live. Hunt and let hunt. My choice of implements is personal, you may not agree but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

[SPIKER]

Aug 22, 2010 10:05:42 GMT -5 Cossack said:

It has become increasingly apparent that most of those who are against crossbow use are so because they will become part of "their" season. 'Let em hunt with the rifle guys but keep them out of my woods when I'm hunting with a (real) bow. That's both selfish and shortsighted. Crossbows are much less like rifles than they are like bows. Compound bows are less like recurve bows than like rifles. (365+ fps, 99% let off, trigger, sights, even dial a range gadgets) I've hunted deer with all types of bows, shotgun handguns, muzzleloader and rifles. At 70 I can no longer pull a vert, so I've resorted to crossbows (only). It's an absolute hoot, and much harder than you 'verters' think(Try it sometime.) I count on one relatively close (under 30 yards) and loud shot, after lifting a 9+ lb bow in place. There are no re-do's; both the noise and the re-cocking make sure of that.
If my kind threaten your hunting that's really sad and unfortunate.
I've earned my right to hunt with service to my country if not my age alone. What I hunt with, by necessity or need, should make no difference to what you hunt with. Relegating my choice of weapon to a shorter, colder season (No MINNESOTA) isn't acceptable to me. Y'all get to hunt during the warm months here, why should I not?
As for shortsighted, statistics show that for every 3 hunters that quit hunting, only one replacement starts. Unless with quit bickering and stick together the antis ( who are increasingly vocal and well financed) will soon win the votes to ensure that NO ONE hunts. Live and let live. Hunt and let hunt. My choice of implements is personal, you may not agree but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

It is apparent that you hold some sort of chip on your shoulder because you feel that you are entitled to use any weapon of your choice during whichever season is available.

Now, being that you cannot pull a legal weight "vert" as you call it, there might be an exception if you can prove your disability to En con, and would be provided with a special permit to hunt with a X Bow.

But, as someone else pointed out, the x bow, and rifle are akin to one another regardless of which came first.

No matter how much we argue these points, the fact remains that hunters will continue to try and get in on the bow season by whatever means possible...but , wait a minute...just shoot a bow, how's that for a novel idea?!!!

Oh, and I don't allow dogs on my property either, but I guess I'm just not understanding enough of other peoples needs if I'm against them running through, and ruining everybody's day?

Anyway, the fact also remains that if x bows got their own season, or were incorporated into the rifle, and muzzleloader season, they would still want in on the bow season.

It's not "my season", it's "bowseason", and I participate in it as a "bowhunter".

I own rifles, pistols, slug guns, etc..and I'm not petitioning to be allowed to hunt with any of them during any other season than for which they are intended.

[ccwilder3]

Aug 22, 2010 10:05:42 GMT -5 Cossack said:

It has become increasingly apparent that most of those who are against crossbow use are so because they will become part of "their" season. 'Let em hunt with the rifle guys but keep them out of my woods when I'm hunting with a (real) bow. That's both selfish and shortsighted. Crossbows are much less like rifles than they are like bows. Compound bows are less like recurve bows than like rifles. (365+ fps, 99% let off, trigger, sights, even dial a range gadgets) I've hunted deer with all types of bows, shotgun handguns, muzzleloader and rifles. At 70 I can no longer pull a vert, so I've resorted to crossbows (only). It's an absolute hoot, and much harder than you 'verters' think(Try it sometime.) I count on one relatively close (under 30 yards) and loud shot, after lifting a 9+ lb bow in place. There are no re-do's; both the noise and the re-cocking make sure of that.
If my kind threaten your hunting that's really sad and unfortunate.
I've earned my right to hunt with service to my country if not my age alone. What I hunt with, by necessity or need, should make no difference to what you hunt with. Relegating my choice of weapon to a shorter, colder season (No MINNESOTA) isn't acceptable to me. Y'all get to hunt during the warm months here, why should I not?
As for shortsighted, statistics show that for every 3 hunters that quit hunting, only one replacement starts. Unless with quit bickering and stick together the antis ( who are increasingly vocal and well financed) will soon win the votes to ensure that NO ONE hunts. Live and let live. Hunt and let hunt. My choice of implements is personal, you may not agree but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

In Florida you can easily get an exemption to use a crossbow during archery season for health reasons.

No season was shortened for crossbow season. There was an off week between archery and muzzleloader. I lobbied the state for two years to create a crossbow season in this time slot. You can also use your crossbow during muzzleloader and general gun, giving you a 3 month crossbow season.

However, greed has already started to rear its ugly head with a push to inject crossbows into the archery season. Three months is not enough, they have to have all of it.

[DocHolladay]

I have to agree with Cossack. I dont care what someone hunts with as long as they hunt(high explosives excluded ;D). The more we have backing what we love to do, the more chances we have of claiming victory against anti hunters and anti gun owners.

I dont like the idea of some muzzleloaders using smokeless powder. This is the same powder that I use to load my .270 Win, .44 mag, .257Wby, etc. When I think of a muzzleloader, I think of smoke. If I wanted to hunt with the same powder I use to load my centerfire rifle, I would use my centerfire rifle!!! BUT, I let it ride because, 1. it is legal to hunt with, 2. it gets more people into our hobby/sport....

I havent been keeping up with this topic on here, but I have had my share of it on other forums and in my home state of Tennessee when they were trying to decide whether to make it legal for anyone to use crossbows for hunting or just a disabled individual. I have done my research and posted it for others to see on those forums. If most havent upgraded from proboards to pay forums, I could go get the info and post it here, but I will try and give it my best from memory and a little more research.... Tommygun hit on a little of it in his post.

From the research I have done, if the compound hunters want to complain about crossbows messing up their season, hunts, ethics, whatever, they need to take a look at when the compound first came out. The traditional hunters didnt want them allowed because "they werent bows". They had "wheels" that gave the compound hunter an "advantage" and it wouldnt really be hunting with a bow because it was easy to hold the bow at full draw longer. The compound bow hunters of today are giving the exact same excuses that the 'traditional' bow hunter was giving when states were thinking of allowing compound bows into archery seasons(read some of the posts here and at other forums for excuses).

If you were to look back in history, the 'earliest reliable record' of a crossbow dates back to 341BC, the earliest record of a longbow/recurve is 8000-6000BC, compound bows were patented in 1969(December 30th)...... Im gonna stop there, that should be enough.

I will add that I heard and saw all of these excuses here in Tennessee when crossbows were being considered legal to use by all hunters(2005). I then watched some, not all, of the same people that were against crossbows, turn around and buy one after the law was passed to legalize them for hunting. I have to say that I have not noticed the overwhelming number of crossbows in the woods the way all of the "haters" speculated it would be like. Heck, I hardly see them at all. It is usually to dang hot to hunt once season opens here(90°+) and toting around a heavy crossbow and gear doesnt help. I hate having to tote in a treestand and a compound most of the time, but do it because I love to hunt.

All of you know, should know, that I shoot a compound bow. Most dont know that I own a recurve bow. I havent hunted with it yet and dont think I will. I like my compound to much. I do shoot my recurve on occasion out in the yard. Will I ever hunt with a crossbow?? Probably. Will I buy one for myself?? Probably not.

[Cossack]

It never ceases to amaze me how selfish and narrow minded some folks can be. A modern compound vert is more like a rifle than a recurve or long bow. Cams, cables, ranging devices, triggers, balance equalizers,365 fps, 90% letoff, noise suppressors, folks shooting past 70 yards, etc etc. Yet you want the same consideration as ones that are a simple stick and string. Why? Because it shoots an arrow. Crossbows shoot arrows too. Arrows that have a far lower ballistic coefficient than a 30" arrow shot from a vert and, therefore, have a steeper trajectory causing them to fall to earth sooner.
I'm approaching 70 and have hunted with every implement imaginable. Crossbows keep me in the game as I can't draw even 40 lbs any longer. But, I'd hunt with one even if I could. Lifting and holding a 8+ lb bow, for one noisy and close shot, isn't exactly an advantage. It's challenging, try it sometime. I've earned the right to hunt my way through service to my country; if not by dint of my age alone. Who are you to say that I should hunt later (rifle season here in northern Minnesota is in late November) while you enjoy the warmth of September, October and early November with an implement that is at least as effective if not more so than mine. I don't judge what you choose to hunt with and expect the same courtesy from you.
BTW, a vert can be used from an "urban assault vehicle'' just as easily as a crossbow. It's illegal to shoot from the road or right of way with either, something poachers seldom stop to consider. If we're not having the problems now, making crossbows legal likely won't cause it to occur. So the crossbow as a poaching tool argument just doesn't wash. There are slobs in all walks of life including archery. I personally saw two deer wounded last year and found one dead that was un-recovered; all three had been shot with veritcal bows.
It happens, doesn't mean we should put restrictions on the use of verticals any more than we should restrict crossbow use. Just that we should know the limitations of our hunting implement and our capabilities as well.
Live and let live. Hunt and let hunt. Stick together as hunters or not at all.

[SPIKER]

Aug 22, 2010 23:57:27 GMT -5 Cossack said:

It never ceases to amaze me how selfish and narrow minded some folks can be. A modern compound vert is more like a rifle than a recurve or long bow.

You need to sit back, and take a break. You are starting to send this thread into an AT style bash fest.

Keep calling people names, and you will be known as someone who cannot make a valid point without childish rhetoric.

70...my dad is 70, and he's raring to go on a bear hunt with me, and BT up in the wilderness of Maine.

What you don't seem to comprehend is this:

1. Nobody is saying that the crossbow isn't welcome. They are saying that unless you have a disability that prevents you from drawing a bow, it should not be allowed during the bow season, but have no problem with it during any other season.

2. If you have said disability, then it should be allowed. And, here you are, with the ability to use one, and you are still complaining...am I missing something here?

3. If the xbow is so heavy, and loud, and yadda, yadda, yadda, hunt with a rifle.

Everyone else here is trying to make their points by describing how they feel in a mature way. You are the only one attacking other people's point of view, and you are only confirming many peoples mindset about the type of people that hunt with a x bow.

[ccwilder3]

Aug 22, 2010 23:57:27 GMT -5 Cossack said:

It never ceases to amaze me how selfish and narrow minded some folks can be. A modern compound vert is more like a rifle than a recurve or long bow. Cams, cables, ranging devices, triggers, balance equalizers,365 fps, 90% letoff, noise suppressors, folks shooting past 70 yards, etc etc. Yet you want the same consideration as ones that are a simple stick and string. Why? Because it shoots an arrow. Crossbows shoot arrows too. Arrows that have a far lower ballistic coefficient than a 30" arrow shot from a vert and, therefore, have a steeper trajectory causing them to fall to earth sooner.
I'm approaching 70 and have hunted with every implement imaginable. Crossbows keep me in the game as I can't draw even 40 lbs any longer. But, I'd hunt with one even if I could. Lifting and holding a 8+ lb bow, for one noisy and close shot, isn't exactly an advantage. It's challenging, try it sometime. I've earned the right to hunt my way through service to my country; if not by dint of my age alone. Who are you to say that I should hunt later (rifle season here in northern Minnesota is in late November) while you enjoy the warmth of September, October and early November with an implement that is at least as effective if not more so than mine. I don't judge what you choose to hunt with and expect the same courtesy from you.
BTW, a vert can be used from an "urban assault vehicle'' just as easily as a crossbow. It's illegal to shoot from the road or right of way with either, something poachers seldom stop to consider. If we're not having the problems now, making crossbows legal likely won't cause it to occur. So the crossbow as a poaching tool argument just doesn't wash. There are slobs in all walks of life including archery. I personally saw two deer wounded last year and found one dead that was un-recovered; all three had been shot with veritcal bows.
It happens, doesn't mean we should put restrictions on the use of verticals any more than we should restrict crossbow use. Just that we should know the limitations of our hunting implement and our capabilities as well.
Live and let live. Hunt and let hunt. Stick together as hunters or not at all.

I am unfamiliar with the laws of your state. Are you saying that you are unable to get a health exemption in your state?

If so, you should lobby to have the law changed. I personally think that there should also be an automatic age exemption at 55.

I must disagree with you however, when comparing a compound to a crossbow. A crossbow is a precocked device that is held to the shoulder, fired with built in trigger, usually scoped. While the propulsion system is the same as a bow, the use of, and the firing sequence is that of a rifle.

With Florida's year round hog hunting, I have had the opportunity to use a crossbow. I know the benefits and the deficiencies of hunting with one.

Cons:
Bulk and awkwardness. The weight would not really be an issue if the darn thing was not so awkward to carry. It is pretty much impossible to stalk through a thicket safely with one that is precocked and loaded.

Pros
There is little skill required to fire one accurately enough to hunt with. Anyone with any experience with a gun is pretty much ready to rock. Someone without any experience with a gun may take a few minutes to become proficeint enough to hunt at the effective range of the crossbow.
They can be fired from a rest, making long range accuracy much easier.
It is precocked and preloaded. All you have to do to shoot it in the presence of game is raise, aim and pull the trigger. This is the number one advantage of the crossbow, minimal movement and quick aiming and firing.


I will not blame the crossbow for people that use it illegally. Some people are just pitiful. They are going to break the law regardless.

Crossbows and vertical bows have the same range. neither really has an advantage.

I often hear complaints about the rate of fire for the crossbow. This only applies to those who really need to use one. A healthy person does not need to use a crank or a cocker to cock one. I have no problem quickly cocking one by hand either on the ground or in a treestand.

They do tend to be louder than a bow. I don't see this as a real problem because bow or crossbow, you seldom get a second chance after a miss.

All in all, I think Florida has handled this issue pretty well to date. They make it easy to get an exemption, gave the crossbow hunters their own season, allow the use of cross bows for all of the three month gun season, have an additional late one month primitive season where crossbows are legal and allow the use of crossbows on private property year round to take a number of different species including hogs.
If this is not sufficient for crossbow hunters then I would ask, just who is being selfish?

[ccwilder3]

Aug 23, 2010 8:20:30 GMT -5 SPIKER said:

Aug 22, 2010 23:57:27 GMT -5 Cossack said:

It never ceases to amaze me how selfish and narrow minded some folks can be. A modern compound vert is more like a rifle than a recurve or long bow.

You need to sit back, and take a break. You are starting to send this thread into an AT style bash fest.

Keep calling people names, and you will be known as someone who cannot make a valid point without childish rhetoric.

70...my dad is 70, and he's raring to go on a bear hunt with me, and BT up in the wilderness of Maine.

What you don't seem to comprehend is this:

1. Nobody is saying that the crossbow isn't welcome. They are saying that unless you have a disability that prevents you from drawing a bow, it should not be allowed during the bow season, but have no problem with it during any other season.

2. If you have said disability, then it should be allowed. And, here you are, with the ability to use one, and you are still complaining...am I missing something here?

3. If the xbow is so heavy, and loud, and yadda, yadda, yadda, hunt with a rifle.

Everyone else here is trying to make their points by describing how they feel in a mature way. You are the only one attacking other people's point of view, and you are only confirming many peoples mindset about the type of people that hunt with a x bow.

Boy are you right about AT. As soon as the conversation starts it gets ugly.

[Cossack]

I am unfamiliar with the laws of your state. Are you saying that you are unable to get a health exemption in your state?

If so, you should lobby to have the law changed. I personally think that there should also be an automatic age exemption at 55.

I must disagree with you however, when comparing a compound to a crossbow. A crossbow is a precocked device that is held to the shoulder, fired with built in trigger, usually scoped. While the propulsion system is the same as a bow, the use of, and the firing sequence is that of a rifle.

With Florida's year round hog hunting, I have had the opportunity to use a crossbow. I know the benefits and the deficiencies of hunting with one.

Cons:
Bulk and awkwardness. The weight would not really be an issue if the darn thing was not so awkward to carry. It is pretty much impossible to stalk through a thicket safely with one that is precocked and loaded.

Pros
There is little skill required to fire one accurately enough to hunt with. Anyone with any experience with a gun is pretty much ready to rock. Someone without any experience with a gun may take a few minutes to become proficeint enough to hunt at the effective range of the crossbow.
They can be fired from a rest, making long range accuracy much easier.
It is precocked and preloaded. All you have to do to shoot it in the presence of game is raise, aim and pull the trigger. This is the number one advantage of the crossbow, minimal movement and quick aiming and firing.


I will not blame the crossbow for people that use it illegally. Some people are just pitiful. They are going to break the law regardless.

Crossbows and vertical bows have the same range. neither really has an advantage.

I often hear complaints about the rate of fire for the crossbow. This only applies to those who really need to use one. A healthy person does not need to use a crank or a cocker to cock one. I have no problem quickly cocking one by hand either on the ground or in a treestand.

They do tend to be louder than a bow. I don't see this as a real problem because bow or crossbow, you seldom get a second chance after a miss.

All in all, I think Florida has handled this issue pretty well to date. They make it easy to get an exemption, gave the crossbow hunters their own season, allow the use of cross bows for all of the three month gun season, have an additional late one month primitive season where crossbows are legal and allow the use of crossbows on private property year round to take a number of different species including hogs.
If this is not sufficient for crossbow hunters then I would ask, just who is being selfish?[/quote]
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What is good for Florida works in Florida, may not in MN. Not being selfish, just realistic.
Bow season here starts on Sept 15 and runs through December. Rifle season is in late Nov. and ML after that. It get's a little cold here by rifle season. (We start driving ON our lakes about then ). Sitting in a tree during rifle season (much less after ML season) gets a tad uncomfortable. Suppose we could carve out a special crossbow season out of bow season, say the month of October?
I don't disagree that the learning curve for a crossbow being shorter. But if it's supposed to be difficult, shouldn't everyone hunt with a trad? Knowing the limitation of the weapon and estimating trajectory is the same, scope or not. (BTW, not all vert users are proficient; the arrows I saw sticking out of the ham and paunch of (2) deer that ran by were shot from a vert.)
Yes, I can hunt, so this isn't about me. It's about those who would like to have the same privilege but cannot. And yes, MN is considering a 55 yr old exemption. But I think were working at the wrong end. Statistics show that unless most kids are into hunting by 10, they are less likely to do so. Crossbows can facilitate their entry into hunting BEFORE they can effectively pull a deer legal bow. (Not to overlook more mature folks who have all the time in the world to hunt. Last year I passed on 18 legal deer...while hunting from the ground... 6 within 15 yards, one 6 feet!)

PS cocking a crossbow by hand w/o using a rope cocker is pretty much limited to relativley weak bows (or very strong men) and causes poor accuracy by not consistently centering the string.

[ccwilder3]

I agree that what works in one state may not be appropriate for another. Down here if they put crossbows in archery season, you would be hunting in 95 degree weather with a heat index in the triple digits.

I see no problem with designating a portion of your long archery season a crossbow allowed period. But that should be up to you residents to decide. Not an out of stater like me or the lobbyist for the crossbow manufacturers.

Also, I have no problem cocking a 200 lbs crossbow by hand and doing so in a consistent manner. I will admit that I am a bit winded after 6 shots and need the breather walking to the target to retrieve my arrows gives me. Accuracy is not a problem.

The excuse that allowing crossbows into archery season to introduce kids to the sport just won't fly. So a kid has to wait a couple of more years before he or she is able to bow hunt. Does this mean a parent can't take them hunting with a gun? Several years ago the NWTF commissioned a study to find out what were the reasons for the decline in hunter participation. The number one reason was lack of access to hunting land. The number two reason was lack of people willing to take a youngster hunting with reason number one being the main cause of that. Lack of crossbows in archery season did not make the list.

The majority of people of people that I know that want to use a crossbow, want to use one because they don't want to take the time to learn how to shoot a bow. It would also be nice if those shooting a bow would practice more. I hate seeing wounded animals.

Sounds like you and I need to work on a swap hunt. An early season deer hunt for me and a late season hog hunt for you.