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Post by Buckshot06 on Dec 31, 2008 21:42:50 GMT -5
If I find time tomorrow I will try the NAP Nightmares and post the results. I might still have some thunder heads I can try If you guys would like  . I will post ASAP  . |
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smj
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Post by smj on Dec 31, 2008 23:15:22 GMT -5
Four fletch gives better penetration? I can not prove it right now, but I suspect that the 4-fletch is more stable in flight and can better channel its available energy to penetration. This would be yet another previously un-thought of bandit, or energy thief! Any instability during flight is going to spend lateral energy at impact. Probably way more than what might be expended by the sides of the broadhead from spin. That is my guess anyway. This has been a really cool posting! To those of you who are jumping in with testing - excellent job!
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Post by BT on Jan 1, 2009 9:44:55 GMT -5
If I find time tomorrow I will try the NAP Nightmares and post the results. I might still have some thunder heads I can try If you guys would like . I will post ASAP . Keep in mind that when comparing/pitting broadhead designs against one another, you have to take the design totals into account The same ratio and blade mass is very important or you will skew your findings. even ferrule diameter will effect the outcome....so although it is hard to find two different heads that share the same dimensions, it is necessary when doing comparisons. |
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Post by BT on Jan 1, 2009 9:50:41 GMT -5
Four fletch gives better penetration? I can not prove it right now, but I suspect that the 4-fletch is more stable in flight and can better channel its available energy to penetration. Do you remember Michihunter and I debating this subject SMJ ? ;D Those were some great discussions but generally not as good as this post..... where more than two people are in it and they are doing more than debating.  |
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Post by Buckshot06 on Jan 1, 2009 10:08:52 GMT -5
If I find time tomorrow I will try the NAP Nightmares and post the results. I might still have some thunder heads I can try If you guys would like . I will post ASAP . Keep in mind that when comparing/pitting broadhead designs against one another, you have to take the design totals into account The same ratio and blade mass is very important or you will skew your findings. even ferrule diameter will effect the outcome....so although it is hard to find two different heads that share the same dimensions, it is necessary when doing comparisons. I do understand what you are saying  . I was just going to show that it doesn't matter if the BH is COC or chisel point the out come would be the same with the four out penetrating the three vanes. Same arrows same BH for each test. Now if you want the penetration depth measurement difference between a COC and chisel point that is going to be a different test altogether. |
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smj
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Post by smj on Jan 1, 2009 10:42:41 GMT -5
Four fletch gives better penetration? I can not prove it right now, but I suspect that the 4-fletch is more stable in flight and can better channel its available energy to penetration. Do you remember Michihunter and I debating this subject SMJ ? ;D Those were some great discussions but generally not as good as this post..... where more than two people are in it and they are doing more than debating. I do remember some good stuff from all of that... My take is simple: If the arrow is flexing at impact, I say that the flex in the shaft will become greater. Put a little flex in an arrow. Hold it between your hands, and put a little side flex on the shaft - hold it just like that. Now, without a tip on the arrow so you don't poke anything important, run the tip of the arrow into something firm, like a wall. The bend in the shaft will get more pronounced. If you run across the room and then smack the wall, I suppose you could break the shaft, SO DON'T DO THAT! It is true that you have one hand at each end of the shaft, and yes the mass of the following hand will want to keep going forward and help to bend the shaft even more than normal - but the dynamic action is the same with or without the hand. This is why folks say stiffer shafts penetrate better - they give up less energy to the sides. A sharper tip goes in with less impact back up the shaft to cause deviations, hence better penetration. An arrow that is angled to one side at impact will want to bend over and slap the animal with the fletching - while trying to find its way down the hole the broadhead cut. Extreme cases, yes, but again the dynamic effect is the same. I tell you these are energy bandits, and they steal from maximum penetration. You want the arrow to go in like a steel needle, no side impact at all. All of the energy of the arrow focused on the very tip of the broadhead, not to the side. I hold that the energy given up to rotation is, in most cases, way down in the noise compared to the other losses that might exist DURING PENETRATION. Keep in mind that flight losses are gone before impact, hence, should not be counted against the spinning tip for penetration. Still, to compare a straight fletch to one that spins - if both shoot spot on at what ever distance, it is a fair comparison. If the spinning shaft shoots low at a given distance, then there has been energy loss due to fletching drag and getting the arrow spinning, and the comparison would not be fair for a 1 to 1 penetration test. The arrows must have the same energy on them to make fair comparisons. Without some care given to this, a false conclusion might be arrived at! |
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SPIKER
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Post by SPIKER on Jan 1, 2009 11:03:17 GMT -5
All this is very interesting.. Last year, when I was experementing with 3 fletch, 4 fletch, etc..I was gauging the effects of long range shooting. I found that the 4 fletch lost too much velocity past 50 yds (Feathers), as compared to a 3 fletch blazer set up at 100- 125 yds.  I didn't think to examine the penetration angle..up to say 40 yds..normal hunting range.  I know that feathers will come off the bow faster than vanes up to 30 yds..but beyond that, will succumb to resistance.  I'll have to do some testing soon...after the snow...and I need some new targets..mine are all chewed up.. |
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Post by BT on Jan 1, 2009 11:40:58 GMT -5
I didn't think to examine the penetration angle..up to say 40 yds..normal hunting range. Normal hunting range is relative to the location of the hunt. In the North, normal is considered to be 15 - 20 yards with 25 being the outside range. In the mid west, normal is considered to be 50 - 60 yards (Norm meaning 90% of shots taken) Actually, 40 yards is what manufacturers such as trueflight and gates have found to be the standard. That said....they test 3 against 3....not 4 fletch 4 Fletch will be more like 30 at the same length. With that said....if you are fletch 4 then you are cutting the length of the same style vane and therefore you are back to being in the range of 35+ |
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Post by BT on Jan 1, 2009 11:49:05 GMT -5
Well I thought I would post this here. I went out and was checking on some penetration depth of my arrows. The shot is into a spot on one of my targets that I have not used for practice. The shot was from 20 yards with three arrows. I tried to line them up to show the penetration difference without getting them to close. The arrows used are PSE X-weave 300 with a 100 grain Field point and blazer vanes. The bow was the Hoyt Alaphamax 32 set at 71 lbs and 29" draw. The top arrow is 29 1/4" long three vane. The middle arrow is 28 1/2" long with three vanes. The bottom arrow is 28 1/2" long with four vanes.  Hey!...I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING THAT SPIKER GOT ME THINKING ABOUT.  When you fletched the 4 vane, you didn't follow the rule of design ratio If you are using 2" Blazers on the 3 fletch then you need to use Blazer 1.5" on the 4 fletch. Remember that you are setting up for relatively the same drag/mass on a 4 fletch and you need to step down the fletch size as a result. If you are shooting a 3 fletch you look at the total fletch length and then divide that total by 4 to find out the correct vane length required for the 4 fletch arrow. For instance, if you are shooting three 4" vanes, you should convert to four 3" vanes Heck!!....penetration would have been even better with the correct conversion |
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Post by Buckshot06 on Jan 1, 2009 11:57:27 GMT -5
I did go and shoot the NIGHTMARES and ThunderHeads. The results was the same at 20 yardswith the four vanes out penitrating the three vanes by 3/4+" every time. Sorry no pics this time my batteries went dead in the camera. Now SPIKER has me thinking on what the penitration difference would be out to 40 yards . |
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. I will post ASAP 
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. I was just going to show that it doesn't matter if the BH is COC or chisel point the out come would be the same with the four out penetrating the three vanes. Same arrows same BH for each test. 
