Hey Kurt

[awshucks]

Can't find the thread where you listed the astronomical cost to get a disabled Xbow permit in the state of Wa. However, here's the requirements to get a handicap parking permit:How do I apply?
If you are an individual with a disability and would like to receive disabled parking privileges:

Complete and sign a Disabled Parking Application for Individuals. Your doctor or licensed registered nurse practitioner must complete and sign the Physician section of the application form before you can submit it.
Submit your completed application:
by mail to:
Individuals with Disabilities
Department of Licensing
PO Box 9043
Olympia WA 98507-9043
OR
in person at any vehicle licensing office EXCEPT the following:
Gary Guzzie Insurance Agency in Cle Elum
Schmidt Insurance Service in Odessa
How long will it take?
We will mail your receipt and disabled parking placards, plates, or tabs to you as soon as your application has been processed. You should receive your identification card within 2–3 weeks

you are being disciminated against, try the ADA, Tom Laquey, and Ed, aka "Gimphunter" an atty that is real good on this kind of crap.

[kurt]

Washington State Law

The way the Washington state law is written, - hunters with disabilities have two options. (not two choices) You can ether get a special use permit, - which secifies the use of otherwise illegal adaptive equipment with conventional bows (long bow, recurve bow or compound bow) OR you can get a special use permit, - that specifies the use of crossbow. --- However, because of the wording, you MUST first show that adaptive equipment for conventional bows will not work for you. – And of course this is all to be determined under the approval of a doctor.

Therefore, in order to get a crossbow permit to accompany your special use permit, - what you have to do, - is go out & buy ALL of the different types of adaptive equipment for conventional bows, - take it in with you to the doctor & demonstrate how it is used, - so that he (or she) can determine whether or not you can use the adaptive equipment. If the doctor determines that you can not use the adaptive equipment, - then you can be issued a crossbow permit.

ALSO, - because of this wording in the law, - once you are issued a crossbow permit, - you can not go back to conventional bow, not even with adaptive equipment, - because it has already been determined that nothing but a crossbow will work for you. Here is the wording of the law.

Archery requirements – Archery special use permits

WAC 232-12-054 (4)(b) says
A crossbow special use permit is available to a person who meets the requirements for an archery special use permit and is unable to use adaptive archery equipment. Adaptive equipment includes, but is not limited to: cocking devices that hold the bow at full draw; trigger mechanisms that may be released by mouth, or chin, or hand supporting the bow; and devices that assist in supporting the bow. Information describing types of adaptive equipment will be provided to the physicians for their assessment of the applicant’s ability to utilize adaptive archery equipment. Muscle weakness, impaired range of motion, or unilateral hand weakness disability, of both hands or both arms or both sides of the upper extremity, may result in an inability to use adaptive archery equipment. Standard tests approved by the American Medical Association may be conducted to assess a person’s abilities.

The ADA coordinator from the Wa. state Dept. of Fish & Wildlife is the one that told me you MUST actually buy & physically deminstrate the adaptive equipment in order for the Doc. to make his/her determination & she (the The ADA coordinator) flat out told me it would be expensive

Kurt

[kurt]

awshucks

Thread where I posted the cost for me to get an xbow permit here in Wa. was "Expansion of crossboews in WI"

Here are the numbers again.

Doc. visit = $200 - $300

Buy vert. bow = $400 (+ or -)

Buy adaptive equip. = $400 (+ or -)

Total = $1000 (or more)

You suggested maybe borrow vert. bow from friend. --- I don't know anyone here that in Wa. that hunts, let alone anyone that has a bow. Besides I am a lefty & it is hard to find other lefty's. I do have a bow hunting buddy in Wi. that is also a lefty & could probably get him to send me one of his bows to use, - but it is still going to be costly (Doc. & adapt. equip.) & a lot of hassle.

I will be looking into contacting the people you suggested. Thanks

Kurt

[awshucks]

The ADA coordinator needs a new job, like bagging groceries, lol. You are being forced to play on a field that's not level, fight it!

[awshucks]

wdfw.wa.gov/com/minutes/apr0304.htm
Minutes of 2004 meeting check out Dave Ware

AMENDMENTS TO EQUIPMENT RULES FOR HUNTERS WITH DISABILITIES:
Dave Ware presented proposed permanent amendments that would allow disabled hunter permittees that are not able to use adaptive archery equipment to use a crossbow.

Four individuals provided oral testimony on the proposed amendments during the meeting.

Commissioner Pelly moved, seconded by Commissioner Van Gytenbeek, to adopt the permanent amendments to WAC 232-12-047, Unlawful firearms for hunting; WAC 232-12-054, Archery requirements--Archery special use permits; and WAC 232-12-828, Hunting of game birds and animals by persons with a disability. The motion to adopt the permanent amendments carried.

They have already captitualated on an ADA suit brought by someone else, Google it. Dave Ware apparently is a state employee w/ F & G? I'd talk to him. Cahill is opposed on grounds of undue hunter advantage, maybe he needs to hear the harvest stats are the same in xbow states? Meetings are public, btw.

Here's the reg, says nothing about buying a bunch of archery equipment and the tests they mention are strength and range of motion types, I think you have been misinformed, kurt.

(b) A crossbow special use permit is available to a person who meets the requirements for an archery special use permit and is unable to use adaptive archery equipment. Adaptive equipment includes, but is not limited to: cocking devices that hold the bow at full draw; trigger mechanisms that may be released by mouth, or chin, or hand supporting the bow; and devices that assist in supporting the bow. Information describing types of adaptive equipment will be provided to physicians for their assessment of the applicant's ability to utilize adaptive archery equipment. Muscle weakness, impaired range of motion, or unilateral hand weakness disability, of both hands or both arms or both sides of the upper extremity, may result in an inability to use adaptive archery equipment. Standard tests approved by the American Medical Association may be conducted to assess a person's abilities.

[BT]

Yikes! ....

[kurt]

aweshucks

you wrote; - Here's the reg, says nothing about buying a bunch of archery equipment and the tests they mention are strength and range of motion types, I think you have been misinformed, kurt

You are right concerning what the reg says, which is; - "Information describing types of adaptive equipment will be provided to physicians for their assessment of the applicant's ability to utilize adaptive archery equipment. --- So the reg only says that you must "provide info to the Doc." --- However, it is during the application process that you are "informed" that you must actually provide actual equipment for demonstration. Here is how it works. ----------

#1) You go to local regional office to get application. The person at the front desk hands you the "Fish & Wildlife Hunter With A Disability Application" --- He/she then also gives you the direct Ph. # to the F&W ADA coordinator in Olympia, & tells you that she will go over the process with you & send you the complete packet of forms & info needed

#2) So you call Ph # provided to talk to ADA coordinator in Olympia

#3) She starts by saying, - (a) First, I want you to know that I am on your side. I was instrumental in introducing & writing the reg to introduce Xbow for use during archery season. (b) The WSAA (Wa. State Archery Association) did not like the reg as we (Dept. of F&W) proposed the reg, - & would not except it with out changing it to be worded as is & with out the process I am going to explain to you.

#4) You have 2 options, - (1) use of adaptive equip. - or - (2) Xbow - both need a Doc. "Certification of Disability" & this form will be included in the packet I send you

#5) You must provide info about adapt. equip. to the Doc. which will also be included in the packet. However, because of the wording in the law & in the application form, - & I am going to tell you right now that this is where it gets expensive, - not only do you have to provide the written info, - but you will need to actually buy & provide for demonstration All of the different available adapt. equip. --- That is about the extent of the conversation with the ADA coordinator & she sends you the packet.

Now you are right, no where in the reg, - or in the application, - or in the Doc. certification of disability, - does it actually say "that you must actually provide the equip. --- However, what all of this paper work does, - is it makes it very clear that the Doc. determination that you can "ONLY" use crossbow, - is based on the inability to use adaptive equip. --- It has nothing to do with strength &/or motion testing. The Doc. does not even have to provide that info (he can, but it is not required) Rather the Doc. has to provide a statement as to why you "can not" use adapt. equip.

So here is the thing. - Because the Doc. can only approve the use of one, - or the other, - & that is determined by the "inability" of using adapt. equip. (strength & range of motion having nothing to do with it) It puts the doc. on the spot of needing to see the adapt. equip. demonstrated in order to make an honest & informed statement that you can not use the adapt. equip. - without put his license on the line for providing false info.

Another word, it is not as simple as the Doc. saying, - "Kurt has provide written info about adapt. equip. & I "believe" (because of strength & motion testing) he can not use this equip. --- Rather, it puts the Doc. on the spot to say, - Kurt has demonstrated the adapt. equip. to me & I have "determined" that he can not use it.

Kurt

[awshucks]

Find a DR w/ a brain. I lost the use of most of rt arm due to rotator cuff surgery. Had to take a "Functional Capacity" exam, standardized by the stae of Illinois. [for work comp, not bow permit] It said I can only lift or pull 19 lbs w/ right arm AT OR ABOVE horizontal. Common sense says I can't draw a hunting weight bow or use a draw lock.

Figured the WSSA or some other bow group was behind this bs. As I read your rsponse, I see nothing written in stone about buying all the adaptive equipment. I have gotten disabled permits in neighboring states to mine just on paper work alone.

By adaptive device, I assume they are talking about a draw lock. You can't use one if you can't draw the bow back to begin w/.
The reg says the state will provide info to Dr on adaptive equipment, take pictures of same w/ you and Dr shop. Go to the next meeting w/ friends/others like you and get that bs changed, ask what state needs approval from an archery club to affect state law. They have the fox guarding the hen house. Look for other disabled xbowers there.

[kurt]

Aweshucks

You are right, there is "nothing written in stone about buying all the adaptive equipment." You are told this by the WDFW ADA coordinator when you call her to get the application packet sent to you.

Though it is no where in writing, the bases for being "told" that this is what you must do, - is in the wording that instructs the Doc. that he/she must provide a statement as to why you can not use the adapt. equip.

The "presumption" being, that the Doc. can not make an informed statement on written info alone, but must see an actual demonstration for his/her to make an informed statement.

Again, though the Doc can provide strength & motion test results, - it is not required & therefore is not the criteria for permitting xbow. The criteria is the statement as to why you can not use adapt. equip. -- So it puts the Doc. on the spot of seeing the equip demonstrated, in order to make a "truly" informed statement, rather then a statement of "opinion" based on written info & strength & motion testing.

I am going to contact the ADA coordinator "again" & flat out ask her, - what if I do not provide actual adapt. equip. but provide written info for Doc to make decision based on strength & motion testing along with written info???

So will see what responce is.

Kurt

[kurt]

Words from Wa. state (caps included)

SPECIAL USE PERMIT APPLICATION MEDICAL CERTIFICATION OF DISABILITY

1) Doctor please check the appropriate box and initial: SELECT ETHER ARCHERY ADAPTIVE EQUIPMENT OR CROSSBOW - DO NOT SELECT BOTH

Crossbow: Person must meet the requirements for an archery adaptive special use permit and must be unable to use adaptive archery equipment. DOCTOR'S MUST STATE WHY THE APPLICANT IS UNABLE TO USE ADAPTIVE ARCHERY EQUIPMENT AND WHY THEY NEED TO USE A CROSSBOW

3)Doctors statement of why the applicant's disability meets the criteria for a special use permit and/or why applicant cannot use standard archery equipment or adaptive equipment and therefore qualifies for a crossbow special use permit.

WASHINGTON STATE DOES NOT REQUIRE THE FOLLOWING TESTS

The following testing criteria has been used by other states and is included here only as an example:

Muscle strength tests (with explanation)
Muscle weakness (with explanation)
Impaired range of motion (with explanation)
Peripheral nerve involvement (with explanation)
Unilateral hand weakness disability (with explanation)
Coordination assessment (with explanation)

penalty of perjury signature asked for 3 times

As you can see, they really drive the adapt. equip. thing home. If I were a Doc. - I would not want to make a statement, without see the equipment demonstrated

Kurt