Issues Facing The Xbow

[kurt]

smj did a "very" fine job of pointing out some of the issues that those of us that want to see laws change to make the crossbow given equal inclusion into the archery season are facing. I will spend the next few days posting each day as much as I can, - to address each of those issues as I can in the limited time I have each day.

smj wrote; - I do not think that you can overlook that the seasons we know and love were (to my knowledge) set up based on folks who wanted to archery hunt with a longbow or a recurve.

True enough, but we also need to keep in mind, as you pointed out, that the laws pertaining to archery hunting also had there introduction before the advances of technology introduced the compound bow. With the introduction of the compound bow came controversy. Controversy brought about change in the law !!! And what was at the foundation to change law to include the compound in the archery line up. It is/was the "fact" that when it comes to the logistics of the shot &/or hunt, - nothing is changed between the use of traditional bows & the compound bow. --- This may not be how it was argued, - but ultimately, when it comes down to it, it is the foundation that allows for the acceptance of the compound to be used during the archery season.

you wrote; - The crossbow was not allowed, it was considered a different level of technology, falling between the bow and the rifle. The hunting seasons - and where we are today - were originally based on the ‘ole stick and string. Don’t forget that what we enjoy today was founded in the face of stiff opposition originally and been under attack ever since.

I think that we have to keep in mind, that "back in the day" (& this was before compounds) there just flat out was not a lot Xbow users out there & there was little, if any at all support for the Xbow, let alone controversy or any true opposition. Therefore "at that time" the only real "question" was to allow for an archery season or not & the definition for archery season was write by people that were not faced with two elements that exist today. First is that there was no support for the Xbow (& therefore no oppostition) & secondly not even a concept of the compound bow. Another words, at that time, the people advocating for an "archery season" had an open slate on which to write & define the law, based on archery, as it existed "at that time." They simply had no way to consider, - let alone right into law the issues &/or technology that exists today. They were not faced with it, - it did not exist. - Another words, the origin of the laws were based on a reflection of the time, - not consideration of &/or for the future. We are now living in the future, that they could not foresee.

you wrote; - AND, do not take lightly all of the thousands of people who have fought to keep (and enhance) these laws in place that allow us to enjoy the archery season as it is.

By now it should be obvious that I take this issue very seriously, so I certainly do not take "the thousands" fighting to keep archery as it is lightly. I fully understand that there are "large" numbers of bow hunters that do not want to see what they hold near & dear change. Large numbers of people agreeing on a particular issue, does not mean that what they agree to is right. It just means that they are a large group of like minded people, "feeling" they are right in their like mindedness. Majorities, - just like individuals, - can rally behind self serving ideals that are motivated by prejudice & foster discrimination.

you wrote: - If you really want to change the way archery season is defined, you are going to have to get some buy-in from those who have fought so hard for so long to keep what we have.

I will skip the "archery season defined" part for now & come back to it later. --- However, concerning the "buy in" factor, - that would "most certainly" be the preferred way to resolve this issue. The problem is, I just don't see that happening. So we are back to square one. Fighting about it, - & time will tell whether or not a "buy in" by the vert. crowd is really what is needed. Lets keep in mind, that the vertical archery clubs are not the "authority" of the legal process & law making. They are only a representation of like minded people, speaking with a voice of influence to the authorities of the legal process & law making. --- Up until recently (&/or now) they have had the greater voice of influence. But that is changing & it is changing fast. We (those of us that are advocating for equal inclusion of Xbow) are organizing & growing in numbers & we are not going away. Enough so, that we to are gaining a voice of influence, - when it comes to "being heard' by the "actual" authorities in the legal law making process. --- The fact that we are making in-roads to the relaxing of Xbow laws, in many states, should be an eye opener to the reality of this fact.--- The funny (but sad) thing in all of this, - is that, in fact, most if not all of us that are advocating for the inclusion of Xbow, - were "originally" vertical bow hunters & are trying to do nothing other then stay in a sporting activity that we to dearly love, but faced with difficulty in doing so, - brought on due to physical impairments & or disabilities resulting from the ageing process &/or some unfortunate accident.

You wrote; - You will have to understand what the real issues are

I believe I do understand what the real issues are. They are fear & sentiment in opposition to truth & facts. Where real understanding comes into play, is understanding the arguments, because that is where truth & facts over come fear & sentiment. That is called, becoming educated through the forum of debate.

You wrote; - and what is at stake. I think, my opinion again, that you will find that there is a lot more at stake than just adding a crossbow to the list of legal weapons for archery season.

Again, I believe I do understand what is at stake. It is losing "our" right to hunt altogether, - to those that would like to see it done completely away with, - as we fight amongst our selves for "special privilege" rights.

Enough for now, will touch on some of your other points later

Kurt

[kurt]

(reply continued to what smj posted)
You wrote; - A host of individuals will come forth who are not informed and only running on emotional hype. They believe that they are right, everyone else is wrong, and will have no factual knowledge to base their opinions on.

This is already the case & goes back to what I have already said about people basing their stand against Xbow on fear & sentiment, rather then on truth & facts. The solution here is educating people. Keeping Xbow out &/or under oppressing restrictive laws, because of peoples fears & sentiment, most certainly is not the answer to this problem. All that does, is allow people to continue to live with their own prejudice discriminating bias ideals.

You wrote: - Rifle hunters will add chaos to the mix. A number of them want to hunt during archery season, during the rut,and they want our longer season.Let one person suggest that the crossbow is a rifle – some rifle hunter will suggest that there is no difference.

Again, this is an education problem. To deny honest ethical archers, that understand the "limitations" of the Xbow, because "some" others will go out under the illusions of myth, certainly is not the answer here ether. All that does, is punish the good behavior of one person, based on the bad behavior of another person. Again the answer here is education & that can be done first by requiring Xbow manufactures to include info about the limitations of the Xbow in the sales of Xbows, &/or info with license sale &/or hunter safety course's, --- And as awshucks pointed out, a lot of rifle hunters, when they find out that archery hunting, with an Xbow, is not the gravy train they thought it would be, are simply going to hang up their Xbow after the first or second season

You wrote; - Anti-hunting/animal rights groups – They will state that the crossbow is not a primitive weapon, and suggest that the season should be brought in line with rifle season. Press this argument and there could be a review of the compound bow… That could be ruled as not being a primitive weapon either – more chaos and division among those of us who need to stick together!

You are absolutely right here. The Anti-hunting/animal rights groups, is in fact the very reason that ALL archers should be sticking together, - rather then being divided. (including Xbow archers) It is the reason that archery clubs should hold "true" to their mission statement that says, - "it is our mission to PROMOTE bow hunting" rather then limiting it, by promoting only particular "types" of bows.

You wrote; - Traditional archers who are already upset about compound bows will probably not support the bringing of crossbows in to archery season. They want the compounds out already! This will further divide the archery community and make us more susceptible to attack by the antis and animal rights groups.

"will further divide the archery community" - division is already the problem, not "further divide" it is already as divided as it can get, & that is the "shame of it" - Or as I have said before, - cut off my nose in spite of my face. --- What a foolish attitude, - to demand recognition (&/or protection) of a "personal" interest, - at the expense of others that have a "very similar" interest, - when there is a far greater threat at hand. Me, myself, & I equals, - divided we fall, - because united we most certainly are not.

You wrote; -Wildlife managers will be asked to come up with a new plan… Who will they listen to if we divide into three factions: trad, comp, xbow? You can bet that the antis and animal rights groups will not hesitate to step in and suggest some new plans for us, and have a whole campaign to enlist the non-hunting public.

It is only a problem for the wildlife managers, in it "current" state of division. Take away the division & you take away the problem. It then simply becomes an archery season in which archery hunters go hunting, regardless of the kind of bow an individual choose's hunts with. --- And again, being united, instead of divided, solves the problem of the "true" antis.

you wrote; - I am sure that the list goes on, and I have not even scratched the surface or even mentioned the fight that the compound manufacturers will put up. I suspect that they do not want to loose sales to the crossbow.

You are right, you have not even scratched the surface & I will be posting answers to some of the other arguments floating around out there in the days to come. --- Concerning the fear of compound manufacturers losing sales to crossbows, is again, in all reality, an unfounded fear/argument. The reality is, that if Xbows were made equally included into the archery season, - a lot, if not all, compound manufactures would simply tool up to make crossbows & compete with the current crossbow manufactures. At least that is what I would do if I was a compound manufacture. After all, I am already making bows & the expense to tool up for a crossbow line would be minimal to the potential profits of having another line of bows to sell

All for now
Kurt

[BT]

(Here comes the Devil's advocate )

kurt said:

smj wrote; - I do not think that you can overlook that the seasons we know and love were (to my knowledge) set up based on folks who wanted to archery hunt with a longbow or a recurve.

True enough, but we also need to keep in mind, as you pointed out, that the laws pertaining to archery hunting also had there introduction before the advances of technology introduced the compound bow. With the introduction of the compound bow came controversy. Controversy brought about change in the law !!! And what was at the foundation to change law to include the compound in the archery line up. It is/was the "fact" that when it comes to the logistics of the shot &/or hunt, - nothing is changed between the use of traditional bows & the compound bow. --- This may not be how it was argued, - but ultimately, when it comes down to it, it is the foundation that allows for the acceptance of the compound to be used during the archery season.

To be honest , discussion and reason had little at all to do with the legality of the compound bow and it's use within the archery seasons.
The fact is that manufacturers who paid for this inclusion are the ones responsible for bringing it about.
(The same will be true for the crossbow.)
Game agency's were strong against the compounds usage throughout the country upon it's introduction.
Alot of the arguement was based on the fact that the compound bow was a far more efficient weapon and therefore would throw a wrench (potentially) in management practices as it pertained to licence sales and game limits.
Primitive meant primitive and it was the primitive that got archery allowed.
Some states revised thier game laws to state flatly that the use of the compound bow was to be forbidden.
The traditional archery season was a hard fought battle.
The arguments that allowed it were all based on the fact that the early seasons could not throw a wrench in the management of game herds due to the limited range of that weapon.
Archery seasons in many states were experimental and only consisted of a few days while other states simply disallowed the use of primitive weapons at all.

Even persons who did not hunt had no unfounded fears when viewing the traditional bow.
The traditional bow was looked at with amusement by those who were friends of bambi and back then , groups like PETA would have fought to have only archery equipment allowed if given only the choice of weapon to be used
That's not the case today
The unbridled field success that is linked to the compound has made archery a target of anti-hunting groups

The fact that these arguments and studies were used as a base for current game law suggests that today's practices open up the sport for challenge by those who would wish to see it dissolved.
Anti-hunting groups are readily finding these loop holes in game laws to challenge existing practises and by adding fuel to the fire is only to weaken the walls of defence for the overall sport.
I am not saying that the crossbow is going to be the weak link because I believe the link already exists....waiting for someone to find it.
On the other hand..... am wondering , will additional modernization of archery effect us all in the negative?.
Modern practice of archery hunting is far different than it was originally intended.
Adding to that modernization only acts to leverage that issue against the minority.
Since we do not live in a vacuum , we have to analyze (location) where this will fly and where it will not.
This is why I believe that (based on geography) the crossbow is legal (where it is legal) and illegal (where it is illegal)

[nodog]

Hmmm. Some deep thinking.

I see it as a done deal, people might as well get used to them being around.

For anyone who's never been involved with the legal system you need to understand that it isn't about right or wrong, or even how it effects a persons life, it's about making deals. This deal is already made.

My advise is to stay out of site, out of mind. If your not the one in power your either the shaft or the target, one way or another your going to get smacked. Being noctural is a good thing.

[BT]

nodog said:

Hmmm. Some deep thinking.

I see it as a done deal, people might as well get used to them being around.

For anyone who's never been involved with the legal system you need to understand that it isn't about right or wrong, or even how it effects a persons life, it's about making deals. This deal is already made.

My advise is to stay out of site, out of mind. If your not the one in power your either the shaft or the target, one way or another your going to get smacked. Being nocturnal is a good thing.

AMEN! ;D

It's still important to educate though

[rreda]

Before I give my 2 cents worth on this subject I want to make a couple of things clear:

1) I am a selfish bowhunter who does not want to lose even one day of the season that I enjoy today.
2) I have no problem whatsoever with the Crossbow as a hunting weapon. I deer hunt with a gun from time to time, so I am not coming from an elitist point of view.

There are 2 things that I have heard in this discussion that I would like to address.

The first is that the crossbow does not have a marked advantage over the traditional compound bow. My response is that although the crossbow may have similar limited range etc. as the compound, the major difference between the two is that in order to shoot the crossbow, the shooter has only to move a finger, whereas the compound or traditional shooter must go through the motion of drawing the bow before they can shoot. It is lack of this pre-shot motion that is a big advantage for the crossbow. How many times have you had a deer so close that you would not dare try to draw your bow because it would spook the deer into the next county. I had this exact scenario happen to me twice in the past week. How much easier would it be to squeeze a trigger?

The second item I would like to address is the statement that as of this time no bow season has been adversely affected due to the crossbow being approved for hunting. Assuming this is true, we must consider that the deer population is at an all time high and most of the wildlife authorities are doing all that they can to control the population, even to the point of expanding many of the existing seasons. In the future the pendulum may swing the other way, and they may look for reasons to shorten seasons.

I believe that the crossbow is a valid hunting weapon and that it does deserve to have a season, but I do not think that it should be included as a weapon that could be used during the "archery season". I think that it should have it's own season even if that season would overlap or run concurrently with the "archery season". That way if it was determined that the cross bow was too effective, then only the crossbow season could be modified and it would not impact the "archery season". I believe that this would be a workable solution to the question.

[BT]

rreda said:

There are 2 things that I have heard in this discussion that I would like to address.

The first is that the crossbow does not have a marked advantage over the traditional compound bow. My response is that although the crossbow may have similar limited range etc. as the compound, the major difference between the two is that in order to shoot the crossbow, the shooter has only to move a finger, whereas the compound or traditional shooter must go through the motion of drawing the bow before they can shoot. It is lack of this pre-shot motion that is a big advantage for the crossbow. How many times have you had a deer so close that you would not dare try to draw your bow because it would spook the deer into the next county. I had this exact scenario happen to me twice in the past week. How much easier would it be to squeeze a trigger?

You are correct but I would contend that there is less than a hand full of crossbow hunters that can claim success on a second shot
Since the crossbow is no faster than the compound , we can expect the same occurrences of misses due to the deers reaction.
Of those misses , what percentage of follow up shots will harvest that deer?.
I dare say that the compound has an very unfair advantage in this respect.
We know that there are a tremendous amount of second , third and forth shots fired each season which result in harvests.
....I would say that the crossbow is outclassed in this respect.

The second item I would like to address is the statement that as of this time no bow season has been adversely affected due to the crossbow being approved for hunting. Assuming this is true, we must consider that the deer population is at an all time high and most of the wildlife authorities are doing all that they can to control the population, even to the point of expanding many of the existing seasons. In the future the pendulum may swing the other way, and they may look for reasons to shorten seasons.

I believe that the crossbow is a valid hunting weapon and that it does deserve to have a season, but I do not think that it should be included as a weapon that could be used during the "archery season". I think that it should have it's own season even if that season would overlap or run concurrently with the "archery season". That way if it was determined that the cross bow was too effective, then only the crossbow season could be modified and it would not impact the "archery season". I believe that this would be a workable solution to the question.

I would love to see a separate season for the crossbow
In fact....I'll bet the manufacturers would rather it be that way too

[kurt]

Hi rreda

Two things, first is that I doubt that adding Xbow to the archery season would cause the season to be shortened in & of its self. If the season "were" to be shortened, it would be do to management practice. Meaning that deer herds would have to drop to all time lows & therefore a shorter season to give the herds a chance to recover. I don't see that happening anytime soon, - being as how deer herds are at all time highs across this country. In fact managers in most (if not all) states are trying to get harvest numbers up in order to control the numbers. (example) In Wisconsin (at least 3 years ago before I moved from there to Washington) you got our buck tag with your license & then you could get as many doe tags as you wanted for an additional $20 & in some areas you had to "earn a buck" by killing & registering a doe first.

Also, you stand a better chance of having the season shortened by adding "another" season for Xbow. I mean, think about it. There is a limited window, (about 4 months) in the year, to allow for hunting "seasons." Add "another" one, - & something is going to have to "give" somewhere. That would most likely be the current longest season, which is the current archery season in most if not all states.

Second, the motion required for me to bring my Xbow to shoulder & take aim for the shot is no more or no less then bring a conventional bow to draw. I don't sit in my tree stand with my Xbow held up to my shoulder at ready to shoot. I have had to let plenty of deer go because of the motion factor. --- On the other hand, I have missed the opportunity of a second shot with my Xbow, due to the "CLICK" of locking the string back. That is a second shot I most likely would have had with a conventional bow. (speaking from experience with both)

Kurt

[kurt]

P.S. And by the way, - the motion required for locking & loading a Xbow is "FAR" greater then that of a conventional bow

[BT]

kurt said:

P.S. And by the way, - the motion required for locking & loading a Xbow is "FAR" greater then that of a conventional bow

Have you ever gotten off a second shot?